I have something to say. So I'm going to make a long winded poop head post.

I personally reject the following definition as being a definitions created by bigots.

Paganism - Any religion or spiritual belief system that is not Judeo-Islamic-Christian.

From my point of view such a definition is not only meaningless but it clearly shows the arrogance of the people who created that definition.

I much prefer the more meaningful definition:

Paganism - Any religion or spiritual belief system that views the world as being the omniscient manifestation of spirit.

This definition is not just a dirty word that bigots use to divide humanity. Instead it defines the basis of a philosophy. I believe that the roots of paganism began with the eastern mystics. The idea that spirit is omniscience in everything. The earth was worshiped not only as a planet, but as representing all that is physical. Back then Earth meant "the entire physical world". They had no clue that Earth was just one planet revolving around a star. Earth meant - the physical world. And these early pagans believed that the physical world is the omniscient manifestation of spirit. They viewed the spirit as having both yin and yang, yet they may have easily focused on the feminine as the giver of life, just as women are the givers of birth.

The people in the Mediterranean region thought differently as was clearly demonstrated by Greek Mythology as well as all the mythologies that arose from the Mediterranean region. They saw the gods as living in 'heaven' (which was indeed to believed to exist in the sky). Outer space as we know it today was indeed seen as the realm of spiritual 'heaven'. They worshiped the Sky Gods, and viewed them as being egotistical entities in their own right. They always gave the most power to the male godheads. In Greek Mythology is was Zeus, the god of gods. Later it became the God of Abraham (again a male godhead not unlike Zeus at all). In fact, the God of Abraham was very much like Zeus in that both of these gods could be appeased via blood sacrifices.

Eventually the male-chauvinistic Sky-God worshipers came into contact with the pagans. This was probably in the land of Canaan. The Earth-worshiping pagan were most likely the Canaanites. They weren't evil people at all, but they were proclaimed to be evil by the Sky-God worshipers to justify massacring them and taking over their land. The Bible is the historical record of that dastardly deed.

Of course all of the pagans weren't killed and eventually the two clashing cultures began to intermingle. From that point on both Paganism and the Sky-God religions began to be affected by each other's beliefs. The Sky-God religion took the horned God of the pagans and made it into a demon. In an effort to come up with an actual 'Sky-God' deity the pagans began to associate the mother of creation with the moon instead of the earth. After all, the moon is clearly a physical body too that is part of the physical world so this is compatible with the idea that spirit is omniscient in everything. Yet at the same time it elevated the pagan God from a pure idea of an omniscient spirit into a "Sky-Deity" - the Moon Goddess.

Thus Gaia (Mother Earth) become the Mood Goddess.

Actually most witcha folklore views the Goddess as being omniscient in the earth as well as being the Mood Goddess.

So anyway, to keep a long winded poop head post short, let me just say that I see Witchcraft and Shamanism as being merely tools for helping a person realize enlightenment as manifest our intent and desire in the world.

From having visited quite a few sites on witchcraft and Wicca on the net I've come to the conclusion that there are two different paths that people follow:

One is to study the folklore and history of Wicca and witchcraft. From my point of view that would be like studying the Bible (it's just history with potential morality thrown in).

The other way to study Wicca (or more precisely witchcraft) is to study and practice the actaul techniques of alchemy (magick), and that truly requires hand-on practice (such as meditation, shamanic journeying, learning the process of manifestation (spellcraft). This type of study is nothing at all like studying the Bible. The Bible doesn't really teach people to meditate, etc. Although there may be places in it where some authors have suggested this, but overall it's not an instruction book that is focused on spiritaul development.

I have very little interest in the former; (learning folklore), and a lot of interest in the latter; (spiritual development).

huff puff

To many long winded posts. I better go lay down for a while.

No, it's really not. And, it's much more interesting. However, the rituals can be a bit complicated and take some learning.

I agree.

OMG! I almost hurt myself laughing, James.

I also have very little interest in the folklore, and yes, you can spend as much time as you want studying it as it is a far reaching subject.

Because origially when I moved to Arizona almost 2 years ago, I was supposed to have been able to move everything within a couple of months but things happened that made it impossible to do. I have a few more months before I'll be going back and getting everything

Well I know many of you are not interested in historical accounts. I personally am but thats only because its a hobby and history is something I greatly enjoy studying Its just a matter of what you view as being relevant. It also helps me to understand Witchcraft and what led up to the invention of Wicca if I have at least a basic understanding of these older beliefs as they pre-dated Christianity and they were very different in many respects than what takes place today. We are only mimicking something very ancient.

Its just another perspective in which to view this. Speaking of which, I was just on a website that was making the claim that the Witch Hunts were "overblown" and "exaggerated". They were stating that not near as many women were put to death as claimed. You can guess what type of website I found this on so I wont say. This is why history is important and even though watching that video on A&E that upset James was a bummer, he did his part in understanding what occurred and not forgetting these people and what they went through at the hands of the church.

Just an important fact about the Greeks to keep in mind. They were not always patriarchal. The Greek Pantheon that we are familiar with as having Zeus at the head and all of them residing upon Mt.Olympus came much later. They were invaded by Indo-Europeans between the 14th and 12th centuries. Homer even wrote about these Europeans and referred to them as the 'Achaeans" Shortly after, we see the rise of Zeus and all that nonsense.

Gaia and the concept of the Mother Earth originated with the Greeks!

This is true.
Before that time women did all the important jobs because men couldn't be trusted to honor the gifts of Mother Earth properly.

I have been watching a video I got from Netflix on this and it is very interesting. I did not know that about the Greeks, but Crete was completely Goddess oriented before the pantheon that we know today developed.

Exactly. People always just remember what was drilled into their heads in school. Zeus, lots of thunder, angry male gods being quarrelsome up on top of the mountain. Yes thats true and it all happened, but LATER. The Greco/Roman period. The Greeks and the Romans had similar Pantheons by that period in time. For instance

Roman=Jupiter

Greek=Zeus

Roman=Neptune

Greek=Poseidon

Roman=Venus

Greek=Aphrodite

So on and so forth, they had 100s.

I just assumed that the Greek Pantheon had always been. Apparently the civilization they dug up in Crete was not only Goddess oriented, but had no signs of walls or protection. Looks like it was a very peaceful society.

Yep, Minoan Crete. All of these civilizations were Matriarchal before they were Patriarchal. Even the Hebrews, all of them. Partly it is suspected that the actual shift took place due to these Indo-Europeans invaders that brought with them all of the "angry male skygod" stuff. That would eventually become Monotheism or pave the way for it.

Yes, they referred to them as "war cults" that moved into the area. I guess some of the women rebelled and tried to fight them and that's how you get the stories of Amazon women.

Amazons were real. They were largely relegated to myth by male historians for a long time because they were fearsome women. The Greeks did battle with them although there were probably several tribes that were not called "Amazons"

Looks like the Greeks won.

Yep, that they did. But these women were pretty scary and taken seriously. Supposedly one tribe rode white horses and some men refused to do battle with them because it was pretty horrible. A lot of these sculptures also depict the women as being captured so you can imagine.

Yes, I can and it makes me sick.

In the movie it talks about Athena having once been the goddess of wisdom and love becoming the goddess of war. They said "and the violent and the erotic became linked as they never had before".

What does that mean? Erotic, to me, is talking about sex. Is there another meaning for it?

Im not sure what you are watching? Can you point it out online? It sounds like they are making a reference to the Indo-European invasion (Kurgans) and the way the role of the Goddess was changed. Thats when the divine feminine was not completely suppressed. Goddesses were very often forced to "Marry" their warlike Gods in the popular mythology. This steadily would usurp the role of Goddess as Creator of Life. The blade would replace the chalice so to speak in its importance in the societal structure.

Remember all of the "Conan the Barbarian" films? Actually that was a highly fictionalized account of these Indo-Europeans. They were tough people and very aggressive. They would eventually take down the Roman empire which was on its decline by then and militarily falling apart.