Please understand, he Canaanites were an indoeuropean people yes, celtic absolutely not.
also understand that the celts were an amalgamation of different peoples, unified by art, language and religion,
Celt is a culture not a race, for example, the Helvetii, now called the Swiss, the Gauls, now France, The Celtiberians, now Spain, the gaels, now Ireland and Scotland, the Parisii, Brigante Cymry, Silure, Iceni, Catuvellanii, Dobunii , Tuetates and Cimbrii are just some of the names that made up the Celtic peoples, ( I would suggest that modern north american civilization is in fact Celtic in influence, structure and example right down to the variety of peoples and races that make it up!)
The Celtic culture was the dominate culture north of the Mediterranean from aprox 1000 bce until the second century bce, Hallstatt culture peaked by about 850 bce, La Tene peaked in mainland Europe by 200 bce, in Eire 500 c.e.
this stuff is only relevant, in terms of understanding the history, and culture, so that one may understand the myths and symbolisms. bear in mind that the stories of the bloodthirsty nature of the Celts is told only by the Mediterranean peoples, the archeological and anthropological evidence itself says quite different things, for example, the average per acre yield of wheat and barley that the Gauls managed, exceeds the current per acre yield! the art and skill of pattern welding in the manufacture of steel, while others used iron. the sailing ships of the Venetii, (Who Venice is named after) were not equaled until the late renaissance..
In studying the mythology and magickal systems that Celtic culture employed, one must understand the context.
sorry, lecture over, it is rude, I apologize, but in my defense, the Celts have been horrendously misrepresented in both classical literature, and in wiccan /new age.
The path I follow is one of Celtic reconstruction ism, which has required some Eye opening studies and the truth is far different from what has been taught.

I have played druid and bard characters in Dungeons & Dragons several times

No need to apologize. You're views and studies are as valid as anyones, perhaps moreso if you've been at this for a while.

I'm only recounting a quick video that I've watched. I have no clue how accurate their information is. But they did seem to be quite scientific in the DNA analysis of Europeans. They also seemed to actually be in favor of making the Celt's look good, and when they weren't able to do so, their disappointment showed.

The one lady historian who reported that the celtics hung the heads of their victims on their horses seems to be quite disappointed with that fact and even expressed that she had hoped for a better picture. I have no idea how she had determined that they actually did this though.

But as you say, Celt is a culture not a race, and it does appear to be a quite varied culture with many different aspects. And the historians on this documentary were confessing that the very word "Celt" has been very loosely used over the years and that this is quite unfortunate because there doesn't seem to be an consensus on precisely which peoples this name may or may not apply to.

Having said all of that, you could very well have your eye on a group of people that clearly fit under this title and have a much more repsectable history. Even in this documentary they did suggest that there were peace-oriented "Celtic" tribes, that seemed to be focused more on the spiritual and/or psyche nature of life.

So they've certainly left the door open for a niche of people who could be legitamately labeled as "Celtic" and have indeed focused on the more spiritual and intellectual side of life. They most certainly didn't barr that out.

Where the confusion and disagreement comes into play with the historians (according to this documentary) has to do with precisely how you define a "Celt". As you even seem to agree the Celts were an amalgamation of different peoples. And they did give at least three ways of defining them.

1. Based on language.
2. Based on art and religion (which seemed to be realted)
3. Based on other cultures calling them 'Celts'.

The Greeks and Romans both have recorded that they have fought with the "Celts". But they might have just gotten into the habit of calling anyone who isn't one of them a "Celt". Who knows?

I don't mean to sound argumentative. In fact, I'm not arguing with your stance at all. I do believe that there most likely does exist valid and substantial positive histories concerning "Celts".

As I've said before, the easiest (and often the most evident) evidence to find with any culture is associated with warfare. It's just easier to find a field full of broken iron swords, than it is to find a place where a group of peaceful people had once cast a circle and left no evidence behind.

So evidence for the peaceful side of society is probably more difficult to come by and may be more subtle as 'evidence'. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, it's just a harder sell to anyone who doesn't want to believe it.

In the meantime I'm looking forward to getting a copy of Stewart's book on the Faerie Underworld. That's probably based more on verbal folklore that's been passed down through the ages and may prove to be quite interesting. That type of information would be more useful for shamanic journey work anyway.

I was once a Bard named Leucippus Agamenom from the land of Bavidirian at the Green Dragon's Inn. I wrote and performed the following song in the Elvish language.

http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/leah.htm

Very cool Abra

Well, I watched the 5th volume of this documentary. I skipped 3 and 4 for now.

By the 5th volume that so-called "Celts" have all been converted to Christianity. We talking about 1000 AD now. They seem to have the Welsh and Irish being the decendents of the Celts. Mostly the Welsh.

They also have the Welsh converting back and forth between Catholicism and Protestanism depending on who the ruler is at the time.

The whole thing has degraded into Christianity at this point.

I was more interested in the pre-Christian beliefs that they had before they had met up with the Christian-Converted Greeks, and Roman Catholics. I'm really not interested in that contaminated view.

I want to know what happened BEFORE they ever heard of Christianity.

What did they believe BEFORE they were conquered by the Mediterraneans.

That first video called "In the Beginning" had some mention of a peace Goddess or priestess that they worshiped as a ruler. But that was just a quick mention without a whole lot of depth.

From there they went straight to the battles with the Greeks and Romans and it's all Chrisitanity after that. Any earth-based or pantheistic views were already lost at that point or at least highly contaminated by the Mediterranian religions.

I guess it's going to be really hard finding pre-Christian history since in those early days it was indeed the churches that kept the historical records.

Hello all. Hi Abracadabra. Nice chakra wand.

Welcome WitchoftheEast

I'm in the process of making similar wands.

~~~

I just found this page of Stewart's Fairie Tale Books. Finally a place that sells them for reasonable prices.

I'm looking at buying the following books and CD.

The Underworld Initiation



I was able to read some excerpts from this book on this site and it appears to be very much in line with the same types of exercises that the Penczak has in his books. These exercises are almost identical, but with the Celt twist and folklore, whereas Penczak is presenting his ideas more abstractly as 'Core Shamanism' that can be applied to any culture and folklore.

The Miracle Tree



This is Stewart's one modern view of the Tree of Life. He takes it to be a metaphor for the human form and presents it in a way that suggests that we are the Tree (or that the tree metaphorically represents us). He does promise to also discuss other ancient views of the World Tree.

Again, I was able to read some excerpts from this book and Stewart is once again presenting actual exercises to do along the very same lines as Penczak. Once again, Stewart's views are more specific whilst Penczak gives a more abstract and generic presentation. I find Stewart's views interesting on many levels. He confesses that this is his own fiction and view, but claims that it's also based on years of research and folklore. None the less he does suggest that he has given it a 'modern spin' and defends this view by claiming that as folklore evolves the underlying principles remain the same and are simply changed to match our more mordern world view.

So Stewart seems to be presenting a new approach to old ideas, even though he does back this up with research into ancient traditions. I'm looking forward to reading his ideas and interpretations.

~~~

This next book is on that same site, but it's not a Book By Steward, it's a book by Orion Foxwood



There weren't any excerpts available for this book, but the description shows that it's yet another view on the Fairie world.

I'm also getting the following journeying CD that accompanies this book.



Once again the themes and procedures are abstractly identical to both Stewart and Penczak, the only difference being in the individual presentation of these concepts.

One might ask why I would be interested in all these different views if they are all basically saying the same thing. But the bottom line is that it's food for visualization. Just like reading several different novels written by different authors telling a very similar story. They can all bring new light to shine on the subject.

I forgot to post the link to Stewart's books:

http://rjstewart.net/rjstewart-books.htm

Here's a link to some free text by Stewart:

The Four Faerie Cities
http://www.dreampower.com/4Cities.html

This is for visulization work. Again, it's right along the same lines as Penczak's books with the exception of being more specific. Penczak only suggests what you might see absractly. Stewart pretty much tells you in some depth what you're going to see precisely and what your experiences will be to some degree.

In other words, it's a more vividly guided meditation. Which in some ways can be good, and in other ways is a bit restricting. However, it's possible to do both types of journeys (assuming you have the time).

The main differences is that Stewart does your visualizing for you to a large degree where Penczak just gives you the general idea and leaves the precise experience up to you. I think both methods have merit. I'm looking forward to hearing about Stewarts, and Foxwoods specifics. They are good fuel for visulizations.

These are the 'real' faerie tales that I was never exposed to as a child, sadly.

The reason for Stewarts specific symbolism is because he is expressing the specific structure required to stimulate and "Awaken" specific unconscious cultural programing, the "racial consciousness" that Carl Jung alludes to.
This is how the underworld is accessed, and is the same techniques employed in advertising as well as propaganda/manipulation that regimes like the nazis and communists employed.
I have learned that the imagery that Stewart employs does not work well for non northern europeans! the technique works, but other cultures need to employ their own cultural symbolism for maximum efficiency.
check out Thomas the Rhymer, and his story, he journeys to the underworld for seven years, and returns a prophet/poet! he is an historical figure, very real!
(Thomas, Lord Earl of Erculdune and lairmont, late 1200"s CE. scotland)

Well, after having read some of Stewart's excerpts I found his work stimulating. I don't take anything to be carved in stone, but it's always good to have food for thought for journeying work. Based on the excerpts that I've read I feel that he does provide that quite well. It sounds like Foxwood does too. There were not excerpts for Foxwoods book, but I could indentify with the steps he has listed on the CD.

What I'm really looking for is seeds for visualization. I think my visualization will grow on their own from there. Stewart and Foxwood may very well provide the foundation that I'm looking for.

Penczak works along the lines of Michael Harner and looks at "core shamanism". This is a term that Harner himself introduced. What harner did was studying shamanic traditions from all over the world and construct the basis that is common to all shamanic traditions. Penczak pretty much did the same thing with a "witch's" twist.

It appears that Stewart and Foxwood were more focused on the Celtic culture and the Faerie world, which is cool by me since that's what I'm naturally drawn to anyway.

However, having said all of that, I don't dismiss these other cultures. I agree with both Penczak and Harner's view that shamanism itself is indeed a global phenomenon and that cultures that had no way of knowing what each other were doing actually came up with many of the same ideas. This is what Harner calls, "core Shamanism".

The fact that so many independent tribes worldwide and throughout all of history dating back as far as 50,000 years ago (far before anything like Christianity or even Buddhism had been concieved). Shamanism appears to be the spirituality that was used by the earilest cavemen. And this is indeed suggested by the paintings that they've left on the walls of caves.

This also implies that these ideas do indeed come from a universal consciousness. Otherwise how could all of these independent tribes keep coming up with these same ideas. They all come to them in "dreams" or "visions" and so this gives credence to idea that these dreams and visions are coming from some place consistent and "real". Real in the very sense that it's consistent.

They all have the same basic ideas (i.e. Core Shamanism). A quieting of the mind via mediation techniques. The use of repetitive music or mantras to induce a dream-like state of consciouness. The symbolism of the 'underworld' is amazingly consistent. Most cultures seem to agree on the four compass directions leading to differnet worlds, and those worlds are often associated with the same elements of Earth (manifestation), Air (mind or reason), Fire (creativity, tranformation, or magick) and Water (emotion).

They also tend to see three major worlds, the upper, lower and middle. The consistencies are striking. Even Christianity makes some sense in places if it's viewed as a shamanic journey rather than as actual literal events (like Jona and the fish, Noah and the flood, and many other tall tales of the Bible). Many people believe that those stories actually came from shamanic jouneys as messages and were never meant to be taken literally.

Now that I can believe.

In any case, although I like Penczak's approach and lessons very much I'm also quite interested in specific views of certain cultures. In fact, Penczak actually suggest this as part of his course work. He doesn't expect people to stick entirely to his books. He's guiding a much larger picture. So he would be all for using Stewart's and Foxwood's Faerie Tales as material for journeying. In fact, he cites them both in his large bibliography as potential sources of more information.

He lists quite a few sources. Far more than any one student could study. But I'm drawn to these Faerie Tales.

Well, I'm rambling again and Jill's going to put a curse on me to make me shut up.

So I better go now.

Well I did it.

I must be crazy, but I think I already knew that.

I ordered the following books and audio items:

The Underworld Initiation by Stewart
Journey to the Underworld Cassette Tape (audio companion to the book)
The Miracle Tree by Stewart

Faery Teachings Book by Foxwood
Faery Seeership CD (audio companion to the book)

AND,...

Forty Years with Fairies by Daphne Charters

This last book is supposed to be one woman's actual experience with fairies. I don't know if she's making this up or what, but it sounds like a good fairytale book. Ironically this lady is also a Christian which evidently doesn't not conflict with a belief in fairies.

~~~

The thing that upsets me the most is that I've gotten into this way too late in life. I wish this stuff had been presented to me seriously when I was a child. It also appears that some people don't mind mixing spiritual concepts (i.e. Fairies and Christianity). I was raised in a culture that had a phobia against any belief system that didn't conform to the Biblical teachings. They really took the commandment "Thou shalt not have any other God's before me!" far too seriously. So much so that they would actually shun any beliefs or ideas that didn't seem to be compatible with the Bible. I mean, most Christians play along with the "tooth fairy" and "Santa Claus" because they don't really believe in those things. But when they get all serious about religion those concpets are OUT. At least in the sense of having any genuine validity.

I'm not sure whether all of this is just "pretty atheism", or if these spiritual entities actually exist. So in that sense I'm agnostic. After all, the only real basis for belief is to actually interact with these spirits. Anything less than that would just be wishful thinking.

I'm looking at shamanism as something that could be real. But I'll believe it when I actaully experience it. And I'm not about to pretend that I've experienced something when I didn't. But I sure am going to try!

From a purely atheistic point of view I think all of these psychologies are very constructive and positive in any case. Especially if taught to young children. It sure beats showing them a man hanging on a cross and telling them that he's there because they are BAD!

That's not productive of constructive in the least.

In fact, that's a terrible thing to do to children.

I knew a woman, who was my best friend when she lived here, who could see earth spirits and other "beings" that most could not see. She was very in touch with that world. She was not the least bit 'nuts' either. She once saw a water creature rise out of a pond and they looked at each other. The being was aware that she could see her and communicated with her. This was a natural occurrence for this woman. Her name was Martha. When she lived in a commune in Ireland she could see these short dark creatures that seemed to be cloaked in dark robes that creeped around sort of floating. The way she described them reminded me of the dark creatures that were in the movie 'ghost' that took the bad guys to hell. She said they were sort of creepy.

It is in a certain consciousness level between sleep and being awake when you enter into a place where you can see these entities. I was in that state once when I saw what could only be called a gnome. He was a small creature with a squatty little body and pointed ears. He had no clothes on. (eeek!) When he became aware of me and I of him, he came over to me for an energy exchange which amounts to a "psychic sexual exchange" I was quite alarmed and I chanted my mantra and he was blown out of my energy field.

Totally weird it was.

Months later I was at a Military base on a job through a temp agency and I saw a soldier with a drawing pad. I was curious about what he was drawing and I wanted to see it. He had pages and pages of drawings of beautiful dark haired women and they were surrounded by these little naked gnomes. I was stunned, not because of the nudity but because that was a picture of the creature I had seen! The soldier was embarrassed to show me the drawings and did not let me see them except for just a glance. I wanted to ask him why he drew such pictures, but he did not want to talk about it.

Strange it was.

Blessed be everyone. I am new to this site and these forums, but I found this one and had to find people more like myself. I hope everyone has a wonder evening and I look forward to hearing what goes on here.


Blessed be
STAR

Hi Star, welcome to the forums.

This particular forum is faily slow.

It consists mostly of me rambling and Jill trying to cast spells on me to make me stop.

sounds like my kinda room.....lol

<----- gets out cauldron

Hi Star,