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Topic: Define.....Pro-Life, Pro Choice
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oceanriderz's photo

oceanriderz

Mon 12/28/15 04:28 PM

Please I would like your valued opinions on the definitions of those who claim they are pro-life and those who claim to be pro-choice...
Rock's photo

Rock

Mon 12/28/15 04:33 PM

You define it. :thumbsup:
Dodo_David's photo

Dodo_David

Mon 12/28/15 04:51 PM


Please I would like your valued opinions on the definitions of those who claim they are pro-life and those who claim to be pro-choice...


I'll just stand back while you . . .

PacificStar48's photo

PacificStar48

Mon 12/28/15 07:58 PM

Why don't men; who seem to have such a huge desire to dictate command over a woman's body; get their ducky's in a row and control their own procreation instead of putting all the responsibility on women?
Dodo_David's photo

Dodo_David

Mon 12/28/15 08:03 PM

If only unborn babies had a say. ohwell
no photo

RebelArcher

Mon 12/28/15 08:34 PM

"" RU-486
RU-486 is a drug that produces an
abortion. It is taken after the mother
misses her period. It can be used up
to the second month of pregnancy. It
works by blocking progesterone, a
crucial hormone during pregnancy.
Without progesterone, the uterine
lining does not provide food, fluid and
oxygen to the tiny developing baby.
The baby cannot survive. A second
drug is then given that stimulates the
uterus to contract and the baby is
expelled.
Women who abort with the drug
RU-486 experience nausea, severe
cramping, vomiting and bleeding. But
the resulting emotional distress may
have even more impact. Rather than
being “over with” in a few minutes (as
in a surgical abortion) this abortion
could last for over a week. Then, when
the woman finally does abort, she will
expel a tiny dead human being - her
baby.

Suction-Aspiration
In this method, the cervical muscle ring
must be paralyzed and stretched open.
The abortionist then inserts a hollow
plastic tube with a knife-like edge into
the uterus. The suction tears the
baby’s body into pieces. The placenta
is cut from the uterine wall and
everything is sucked into a bottle.

Dilation and Curettage (D and
C)
This is similar to a suction procedure
except a curette, a loop-shaped steel
knife is inserted into the uterus. The
baby and placenta are cut into pieces
and scraped out into a basin. Bleeding
is usually very heavy with this method.
Dilation and Evacuation (D

and E)
This type of abortion is done after the
third month of pregnancy. The cervix
must be dilated before the abortion.
Usually Laminaria sticks are inserted
into the cervix. These are made of
sterilized seaweed that is compressed
into thin sticks. When inserted, they
absorb moisture and expand, thus
enlarging the cervix.
A pliers-like instrument is inserted
through the cervix into the uterus. The
abortionist then seizes a leg, arm or
other part of the baby and, with a
twisting motion, tears it from the
body. This continues until only the
head remains.
Finally the skull is crushed and pulled
out. The nurse must then reassemble
the body parts to be sure that all of
them were removed.

Prostaglandin Abortion
Prostaglandin is a hormone that
induces labor. The baby usually dies
from the trauma of the delivery.
However, if the baby is old enough, it
will be born alive. This is called a
“complication.” To prevent this, some
abortionists use ultrasound to guide
them as they inject a “feticide” (a drug
that kills the fetus) into the unborn
baby’s heart. They then administer
prostaglandin and a dead baby is
delivered. This type of abortion is used
in mid and late term pregnancies.

Dilation and Extraction (D
and X)
This abortion is also used on mid and
late term babies, from 4 to 9 months
gestation. Ultrasound is used to
identify how the unborn baby is facing
in the womb. The abortionist inserts
forceps through the cervical canal into
the uterus and grasps one of the
baby’s legs, positioning the baby feet
first, face down (breech position).
The child’s body is then pulled out of
the birth canal except for the head
which is too large to pass through the
cervix. The baby is alive, and probably
kicking and flailing his legs and arms.
The abortionist hooks his fingers over
the baby’s shoulders, holding the
woman’s cervix away from the baby’s
neck. He then jams blunt tipped
surgical scissors into the base of the
skull and spreads the tips apart to
enlarge the wound.
A suction catheter is inserted into the
baby’s skull and the brain is sucked
out. The skull collapses and the baby’s
head passes easily through the cervix."

Forgive me if I choose not to support any of these "procedures" in any way, shape, form, or fashion. And by "procedures", I mean murder.
PacificStar48's photo

PacificStar48

Mon 12/28/15 08:56 PM

I do Not believe I suggested any of those methods of birth control either.

What I am saying is men who want to avoid the results of an unplanned pregnancy, or it's premature termination medically or because the mother is so stressed out she miscarries or kills herself also, or becomes the victim of domestic violence, that often results in catastrophic premature delivery or death of a mother and child should advocate for dependable PLANNED maternity for both parents.

Including being able to be able to have insurance coverage for their unborn children and the birthmother that they choose more by accident than conscious choice. Don't kid your self if Men demanded maternity coverage with their employers, unions, and legislators it would exist.

I have long said that the majority of women who seek abortion would not if they had viable alternatives to complete an unplanned pregnancy and relinquish custody.

Men who want to protect their progeny and unborn babies need to put their money where there mouth is. Actions speak louder than words.
msharmony's photo

msharmony

Mon 12/28/15 11:26 PM

as far as I can tell

pro life means the main concern is the life of the human inside the woman

and pro choice means the main concern is the life of the woman carrying the human,,,,
Dodo_David's photo

Dodo_David

Tue 12/29/15 05:01 AM


Please I would like your valued opinions on the definitions of those who claim they are pro-life and those who claim to be pro-choice...


PacificStar48's photo

PacificStar48

Tue 12/29/15 11:36 AM


as far as I can tell

pro life means the main concern is the life of the human inside the woman

and pro choice means the main concern is the life of the woman carrying the human,,,,


This is about as concise of and explanation as I think you will see.

It does leave out the concept that prochoice ALSO addresses the quality of life of the fetus will most likely have.

Many people who support pro-choice have a deep regard for fetal life and future babies/human beings.

If they feel the birth will result in untold misery and likely death after catastrophic efforts to save an infant that will have almost zero chance at quality of life, possible ruining the future hopes at the parents having a subsequent healthy child by allowing a late term miscarriage, maybe impoverishing the entire family (including siblings) with a life long dependent child they opt for the difficult choice to terminate a fetal life before it matures enough to feel pain.

Many of the people who support prochoice love children deeply and have spent a life time dedicated to children and not just the selfish self interest of adults.

They have very intimate knowledge of exactly how much suffering is in store for unwanted babies and how only a minuscule number of babies with disabilities ever go home to real families. And how many of those families survive in tact even if they do. The system that exists for unwanted children is so overwhelmed that if the children were animals the SPCA would be clamoring for it to be shut down. Pets are actually treated better than children. At least we have shelters for pets.

Sometimes prochoice is for the good of all at the expense of one. Granted that is a helpless fetus that the potential can not be known for certain but to you torture a child on the premise of potential? That is also part of what prochoice is about.

Since I have rarely if EVER seen a ProLifer do ANYTHING to help the truly desperately needy families care for a special needs baby/child, care about the safety of the human being carrying the child, the safety and welfare of those who actually support mother's who's choice is not to have an abortion but need the desperately in short supply medical care that IS given I have a serious distrust of their motives.

And I have a serious problem with their tactics which are often to harass, intimidate, assault, and even kill those who dare to question if their facts are "truthful" or it they are manipulating the truth about "procedures", motives, and outcomes. If you have to lie, cheat, break the law to make your case then how can a legit debate be held.
Edited by PacificStar48 on Tue 12/29/15 11:53 AM
msharmony's photo

msharmony

Wed 12/30/15 05:42 AM

there are a lot of pro lifers,,,Im sure many are volunteers and activists that work with and for children

and there are probably far fewer who fit neatly in a box on pro life or pro choice


most prolifers I KNOW(important designation there), would not feel the same about a mom who aborts in the first couple trimesters due to danger of her own death or because of the trauma of rape, as they do the same act from someone who just doesn't want to be weighted down


I suspect there are prochoicers for which the same is true,,,
PacificStar48's photo

PacificStar48

Wed 12/30/15 12:50 PM

I think that is true that having a "reason" for an abortion is probably going to sway some people.

I do not believe many really get the price that is puts on a woman who has to complete a pregnancy she does not want. Pregnancy is, if you are any kind of responsible human being, basically giving your body over to another for about a year. It is not just the being pregnant but the recovery too. For some this is minimal, actually for a very small percentage, but for most it is a real stressor physically , mentally, socially, and financially. Even with the most supportive fathers there is not anything close to parity. People can say what they want about it being "normal" but there is nothing normal about the experience beginning to end.

Even if she can hand off the baby to some other person. It is not like getting your hair cut. The mark of pregnancy is lasting both physically and emotionally. And it is certainly more profound than anyone who has not been pregnant can comprehend. Highly participatory fathers that live and breath the pregnancy day in and day out may have and idea but that is remote. As is adoptive parents who have never actually had a dependent child 24/7. True I know adoptive parents go through some very arduous steps sometimes but it still is not having an fetus take what it needs 24/7, weather you eat, sleep, can function in the normal world.

Or be treated like a pariah if you do relinquish custody for the best of reasons. Birth mothers have to explain and be resented for actually surviving pregnancy if they relinquish a child by the child, adoptive parents, her parents, anyone who did anything towards the pregnancy, even if they are paid, and basically by most other mothers or those who hope to be parents. They are rarely rewarded or recognized for the sacrifice and often harshly punished. Mothers who do relinquish or have their children taken are routinely discriminated against. Pretty much for the rest of their life. It is little wonder they want to not be "weighted down". At least a criminal get out for good behavior or eventually is paroled but a mother who does not have a child is pretty much marked for life.

Pretty sad when a father who does not become a father is thought of as lucky, or helpful, or responsible. But most often untainted and still marriageable and father material. Amazes me how many men pay for abortions one way or another with zero impunity.

Really love it when the pro life men are asked if they would anti up to pay for an unwed mother's home, or pay child support for an fatherless baby day in day out and they run for the hills. They want their pound of flesh but they sure don't pay for it. They don't even want to pay for prenatal care so the baby's that might be spared from abortion have a chance at being born normal.
Edited by PacificStar48 on Wed 12/30/15 12:55 PM
no photo

joethebricky

Wed 12/30/15 01:07 PM


"" RU-486
RU-486 is a drug that produces an
abortion. It is taken after the mother
misses her period. It can be used up
to the second month of pregnancy. It
works by blocking progesterone, a
crucial hormone during pregnancy.
Without progesterone, the uterine
lining does not provide food, fluid and
oxygen to the tiny developing baby.
The baby cannot survive. A second
drug is then given that stimulates the
uterus to contract and the baby is
expelled.
Women who abort with the drug
RU-486 experience nausea, severe
cramping, vomiting and bleeding. But
the resulting emotional distress may
have even more impact. Rather than
being “over with” in a few minutes (as
in a surgical abortion) this abortion
could last for over a week. Then, when
the woman finally does abort, she will
expel a tiny dead human being - her
baby.

Suction-Aspiration
In this method, the cervical muscle ring
must be paralyzed and stretched open.
The abortionist then inserts a hollow
plastic tube with a knife-like edge into
the uterus. The suction tears the
baby’s body into pieces. The placenta
is cut from the uterine wall and
everything is sucked into a bottle.

Dilation and Curettage (D and
C)
This is similar to a suction procedure
except a curette, a loop-shaped steel
knife is inserted into the uterus. The
baby and placenta are cut into pieces
and scraped out into a basin. Bleeding
is usually very heavy with this method.
Dilation and Evacuation (D

and E)
This type of abortion is done after the
third month of pregnancy. The cervix
must be dilated before the abortion.
Usually Laminaria sticks are inserted
into the cervix. These are made of
sterilized seaweed that is compressed
into thin sticks. When inserted, they
absorb moisture and expand, thus
enlarging the cervix.
A pliers-like instrument is inserted
through the cervix into the uterus. The
abortionist then seizes a leg, arm or
other part of the baby and, with a
twisting motion, tears it from the
body. This continues until only the
head remains.
Finally the skull is crushed and pulled
out. The nurse must then reassemble
the body parts to be sure that all of
them were removed.

Prostaglandin Abortion
Prostaglandin is a hormone that
induces labor. The baby usually dies
from the trauma of the delivery.
However, if the baby is old enough, it
will be born alive. This is called a
“complication.” To prevent this, some
abortionists use ultrasound to guide
them as they inject a “feticide” (a drug
that kills the fetus) into the unborn
baby’s heart. They then administer
prostaglandin and a dead baby is
delivered. This type of abortion is used
in mid and late term pregnancies.

Dilation and Extraction (D
and X)
This abortion is also used on mid and
late term babies, from 4 to 9 months
gestation. Ultrasound is used to
identify how the unborn baby is facing
in the womb. The abortionist inserts
forceps through the cervical canal into
the uterus and grasps one of the
baby’s legs, positioning the baby feet
first, face down (breech position).
The child’s body is then pulled out of
the birth canal except for the head
which is too large to pass through the
cervix. The baby is alive, and probably
kicking and flailing his legs and arms.
The abortionist hooks his fingers over
the baby’s shoulders, holding the
woman’s cervix away from the baby’s
neck. He then jams blunt tipped
surgical scissors into the base of the
skull and spreads the tips apart to
enlarge the wound.
A suction catheter is inserted into the
baby’s skull and the brain is sucked
out. The skull collapses and the baby’s
head passes easily through the cervix."

Forgive me if I choose not to support any of these "procedures" in any way, shape, form, or fashion. And by "procedures", I mean murder.

I agree with you, it is murder in my opinion.

But you will get the messages telling us we are men and what would we know about a woman carrying a baby that she doesn't want.

Then rape will get mentioned, I think in this case it could very well be justified.

Irresponsible sex is the one that winds me up, and then a baby's life is taken because two adults are too immature and couldn't be bothered thinking about the circumstances.
Yes men and women are responsible.
Dodo_David's photo

Dodo_David

Wed 12/30/15 01:15 PM

So, should unborn babies with beating hearts and brain activity be given the choice of staying alive?
After all, it is their bodies.
no photo

nancy1996l

Wed 12/30/15 01:17 PM


So, should unborn babies with beating hearts and brain activity be given the choice of staying alive?
After all, it is their bodies.


That is an excellent point :thumbsup:
no photo

RebelArcher

Wed 12/30/15 01:57 PM

I do not believe many really get the price that
is puts on a woman who has to complete a
pregnancy she does not want.
Then she shouldnt spread her frickin legs...
If you make a decision to have sex, one of the consequences of having that sex is pregnancy...I dont give two $hits if the woman has a diaphram and on the pill and the guy wears three rubbers and dump trucks on her stomach...pregnancy can STILL happen...and an abortion used as form of birth control for that pregnancy is dead wrong.
Dont wanna deal with a pregnancy? Dont have sex...that baby isnt at fault for a parents stupid azz decisions and lack of responsibility.
msharmony's photo

msharmony

Wed 12/30/15 07:52 PM

yes, abortion as birth control is probably one that folks on both sides get worked up a bit about

you cant become unpregnant, I mean once you are pregnant, whether you keep it five months or nine or two, you have given your body already,, it wont be undone by abortion it will only add some other bodily trauma to whatever one has already tried to avoid through such a procedure

even as a woman, I also don't expect people to pay for my poor choice just because they were against that choice

if I do everything right, marry a good man, with a good job who is supporting us and suddenly dies without insurance leaving us nothing to survive on,, life will certainly change and sacrifices will need to be made,,


I cant just , for instance, throw the child in front of a train, and then tell people who say I should not have that their judgment is lacking or to be disregarded because they weren't willing or able to take my child for me,,,



in the end its a very personal decision, I believe human life is human life at all stages from CONCEPTION and should be protected and not killed for reasons other than self defense or voluntary service,,,,