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Topic: Does anyone else remember the real reason why Health Care is
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IgorFrankensteen's photo

IgorFrankensteen

Fri 03/24/17 08:00 PM


The origins of the current day frakas over health care had nothing to do with health care at all.

This actually started back in the late 1970's, with the raging debate over what to do about the then obvious decline of the American economic hegemony that we had enjoyed since 1945. The sudden rise in oil prices as the Arab nations and other once-colonial nations rebelled against foreign ownership of their oil fields, added to the near collapse of the American auto industry and the rise of the Japanese import industry, was compounded by scandalous behavior by crime infested worker unions.

The blame for our woes was declared to be overpaid American working classes. The chosen "solution" was to drive them down, along side lots of other cost-savings by American big business. The biggest cost to businesses other than direct wages, was health coverage for the workers. So business after business in the early 1980's, stopped paying workers benefits for them, and demanded that the workers pay the company for their own "benefits."

That is when Health Care Costs became a big political deal. The pressure of lowering wages, AND rising personal costs for workers, in a world where no one in power was going to even ATTEMPT to drive down the cost of Housing, meant that the cost of Health Care Insurance was now the number one political/economic football.

If we were actually trying to address the real reasons for the tremendous loss of middle class wealth, we wouldn't be talking about health care at all. And the recent debacle in the House over a failed Republican effort to repeal a lousy Democratic law, based on a terrible Republican idea, wouldn't have happened at all.
adj4u's photo

adj4u

Fri 03/24/17 08:04 PM



The origins of the current day frakas over health care had nothing to do with health care at all.

This actually started back in the late 1970's, with the raging debate over what to do about the then obvious decline of the American economic hegemony that we had enjoyed since 1945. The sudden rise in oil prices as the Arab nations and other once-colonial nations rebelled against foreign ownership of their oil fields, added to the near collapse of the American auto industry and the rise of the Japanese import industry, was compounded by scandalous behavior by crime infested worker unions.

The blame for our woes was declared to be overpaid American working classes. The chosen "solution" was to drive them down, along side lots of other cost-savings by American big business. The biggest cost to businesses other than direct wages, was health coverage for the workers. So business after business in the early 1980's, stopped paying workers benefits for them, and demanded that the workers pay the company for their own "benefits."

That is when Health Care Costs became a big political deal. The pressure of lowering wages, AND rising personal costs for workers, in a world where no one in power was going to even ATTEMPT to drive down the cost of Housing, meant that the cost of Health Care Insurance was now the number one political/economic football.

If we were actually trying to address the real reasons for the tremendous loss of middle class wealth, we wouldn't be talking about health care at all. And the recent debacle in the House over a failed Republican effort to repeal a lousy Democratic law, based on a terrible Republican idea, wouldn't have happened at all.


yep its the unions fault lol well not so lol

the unions did such a good job they negotiated most of their members
right out of their job (but mexico canada japan and s korea thank you)

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Integrityis1st

Fri 03/24/17 08:22 PM

Yep hope you all like working mandatory overtime, being on call, no benefits for $10.00 an hour after spending those years in college and thousands of dollars. I'm not to greedy am I?
adj4u's photo

adj4u

Fri 03/24/17 08:37 PM


Yep hope you all like working mandatory overtime, being on call, no benefits for $10.00 an hour after spending those years in college and thousands of dollars. I'm not to greedy am I?



yeah back in 70s when i would listen to auto workers talk about how they
would throw bolts in motors and do other stuff to mess up new vehicles
there is no wonder people started buying imports

very few people could buy a new car built by workers making 5 times what most people made

that is why the import market took off

and jump to when the auto and steel plants started closing and those
worker that made 4x as much as most people couldnt get jobs that paid
enough so they collected their union money till it ran out then couldnt
get a job near what they where making

found out what real life was like they probably would of rather made half as much and kept their good job till they didnt want it anymore
instead of till they priced themselves out of it

thus it goes and here we are
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Integrityis1st

Fri 03/24/17 08:53 PM

Thus it goes and here we are
adj4u's photo

adj4u

Fri 03/24/17 09:02 PM


Thus it goes and here we are



oops laugh
msharmony's photo

msharmony

Fri 03/24/17 09:06 PM



The origins of the current day frakas over health care had nothing to do with health care at all.

This actually started back in the late 1970's, with the raging debate over what to do about the then obvious decline of the American economic hegemony that we had enjoyed since 1945. The sudden rise in oil prices as the Arab nations and other once-colonial nations rebelled against foreign ownership of their oil fields, added to the near collapse of the American auto industry and the rise of the Japanese import industry, was compounded by scandalous behavior by crime infested worker unions.

The blame for our woes was declared to be overpaid American working classes. The chosen "solution" was to drive them down, along side lots of other cost-savings by American big business. The biggest cost to businesses other than direct wages, was health coverage for the workers. So business after business in the early 1980's, stopped paying workers benefits for them, and demanded that the workers pay the company for their own "benefits."

That is when Health Care Costs became a big political deal. The pressure of lowering wages, AND rising personal costs for workers, in a world where no one in power was going to even ATTEMPT to drive down the cost of Housing, meant that the cost of Health Care Insurance was now the number one political/economic football.

If we were actually trying to address the real reasons for the tremendous loss of middle class wealth, we wouldn't be talking about health care at all. And the recent debacle in the House over a failed Republican effort to repeal a lousy Democratic law, based on a terrible Republican idea, wouldn't have happened at all.



I always saw 'wealth' and healthcare as different animals.

other than those with 'wealth' are more likely to afford healthcare

and of course, AFFORDABLE is either addressed by people earning more or their needs costing less

and earning more is not likely in a culture where your value is only rightly determined by the person who gets to choose what to pay you and expect you to be just grateful you earn ANYTHING
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Integrityis1st

Fri 03/24/17 09:12 PM



Thus it goes and here we are



oops laugh

I'm not finding any humor in it.
motowndowntown's photo

motowndowntown

Fri 03/24/17 09:29 PM



Yep hope you all like working mandatory overtime, being on call, no benefits for $10.00 an hour after spending those years in college and thousands of dollars. I'm not to greedy am I?



yeah back in 70s when i would listen to auto workers talk about how they
would throw bolts in motors and do other stuff to mess up new vehicles
there is no wonder people started buying imports

very few people could buy a new car built by workers making 5 times what most people made

that is why the import market took off

and jump to when the auto and steel plants started closing and those
worker that made 4x as much as most people couldnt get jobs that paid
enough so they collected their union money till it ran out then couldnt
get a job near what they where making

found out what real life was like they probably would of rather made half as much and kept their good job till they didnt want it anymore
instead of till they priced themselves out of it

thus it goes and here we are


Auto workers did not "throw bolts into motors and do other stuff to mess up new vehicles". Auto company execs loosened tolerances, used inferior materials to boost profits, and didn't pay attention to market trends, ie gas prices.

People started buying imports because of price and gas mileage.

When auto workers started making decent wages auto sales boomed. Read the story of Henry Ford sometime. Sales of steel and other industrial and commercial products also boomed with the rising of the general economy.

Most auto workers didn't make anywhere near five times the average of other U.S. workers.
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ciretom

Sat 03/25/17 05:57 AM

This actually started back in the late 1970's The origins of the current day frakas over health care had nothing to do with health care at all.

It "actually started" long before then.
Biggest changes coming during the Depression, and during/right after World War II.

It "started" by the government attempting to control inflation and interfere with markets.

Employers started offering "benefits" and "health insurance" as a means to avoid paying taxes, to pay workers in something other than cash (taxable income).
It started with management, trying to recruit talent, and worked its way down to the line workers.

And the current day frakas over health care did have something to do with health care.
Medicare and Medicaid started in the 60's.
There were plans for a single payer system long before the "late 1970's."
Nixon had his own plan for "reforming healthcare."
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=4337

The pressure of lowering wages, AND rising personal costs for workers

was a problem long before the late 1970's.


If we were actually trying to address the real reasons for the tremendous loss of middle class wealth

we would be back to blaming the Fed and reexamining government interference.
Good luck getting government to accept responsibility for problems it created.

the recent debacle in the House over a failed Republican effort to repeal a lousy Democratic law, based on a terrible Republican idea,

is just continued proof that those in government believe the answer to government created problems is more government.
IgorFrankensteen's photo

IgorFrankensteen

Sat 03/25/17 08:36 AM

To those saying "it started long before," you are right and wrong at the same time. You are right that EVERYTHING in the world has roots that go back to the beginning of existence. But you are wrong about the specific point I am talking about.

Health care as a TOP POLITICAL FOCUS, is a relatively recent phenomenon in the US, and the fact that became so, was NOT because of health care itself. It was and remains such a hot subject, only because no one is wiling to address any of the OTHER biggest cost of living challenges. Especially cost of housing.

Thought experiment: if you didn't have to pay a third to a half or more of your income to pay rent or mortgage, would you be upset about paying much less than that for health care coverage? For most people, that answer is no.

The reasons why health care costs have shot up as much as they have over the last fifty years, is another story entirely, and is NOT do only to one simple-minded factor (though certain political groups want everyone to think so). It's not due JUST to government meddling, in particular, because government meddling in anything, only starts AFTER THERE IS A PROBLEM.
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tombraider

Sat 03/25/17 10:53 AM


It's all about control nothing more, Why is there such a big thing about healthcare it's because they don't want to spend OUR money on us that's right people it's Our money not theirs all we owe them is a pay check to manage it and they can't even get that right.Because they don't want to it doesn't fit their agenda. You don't believe ..then do this go to youtube type in Anonymous and listen and if what you're hearing sounds familiar well then maybe you will begin to see the big picture ..Anonymous
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wellworn

Mon 03/27/17 08:36 AM



It's all about control nothing more, Why is there such a big thing about healthcare it's because they don't want to spend OUR money on us that's right people it's Our money not theirs all we owe them is a pay check to manage it and they can't even get that right.Because they don't want to it doesn't fit their agenda. You don't believe ..then do this go to youtube type in Anonymous and listen and if what you're hearing sounds familiar well then maybe you will begin to see the big picture ..Anonymous
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wellworn

Mon 03/27/17 08:38 AM

At last, someone else sees it.frustrated
msharmony's photo

msharmony

Mon 03/27/17 10:48 AM



It's all about control nothing more, Why is there such a big thing about healthcare it's because they don't want to spend OUR money on us that's right people it's Our money not theirs all we owe them is a pay check to manage it and they can't even get that right.Because they don't want to it doesn't fit their agenda. You don't believe ..then do this go to youtube type in Anonymous and listen and if what you're hearing sounds familiar well then maybe you will begin to see the big picture ..Anonymous


its not so simple as 'our money'

nowhere in our constitution does it mention money, specifically, but taxes instead

'our money' is a collective of dollars that may come from as broad a range of americans with as broad a range of interests as kkk members to church pastors,, 'our money' has no simple one size will fit all use,, so budgets need to be made that address those things that ARE in the Constituion,, namely paying our debts(to others) providing for defense, and providing for 'general welfare'.


Edited by msharmony on Mon 03/27/17 10:49 AM
motowndowntown's photo

motowndowntown

Mon 03/27/17 10:59 AM

Don't you think that "providing for the general welfare" should include some sort of reasonable health care?
msharmony's photo

msharmony

Mon 03/27/17 10:59 AM


Don't you think that "providing for the general welfare" should include some sort of reasonable health care?


I do
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alleoops

Mon 03/27/17 03:34 PM


Don't you think that "providing for the general welfare" should include some sort of reasonable health care?


We do, almost every county with large a population has some type of medical assistance to the needy. In Dallas county there is a large medical facility run with county funds and government grants(funding).
It has all of the latest research and medical equipment available. Staffing from most of the universities statewide. Problem is, it is a poorly run bureaucracy, long waiting times so no one wants to go there. And they still haven't figured out what happened to about $500k in pain pills went.

Yea, government, we need more of this.laugh
IgorFrankensteen's photo

IgorFrankensteen

Mon 03/27/17 04:40 PM



Don't you think that "providing for the general welfare" should include some sort of reasonable health care?


We do, almost every county with large a population has some type of medical assistance to the needy. In Dallas county there is a large medical facility run with county funds and government grants(funding).
It has all of the latest research and medical equipment available. Staffing from most of the universities statewide. Problem is, it is a poorly run bureaucracy, long waiting times so no one wants to go there. And they still haven't figured out what happened to about $500k in pain pills went.

Yea, government, we need more of this.laugh



You seem to be blaming the government, when the place you are decrying is a privately run setup. It just gets assistance from government funding.

This is the Scrooge-donates-to-workhouses approach to health care. The "rich people rely on private charities to take care of the peasants" idea has always proved to be exactly as you describe. Hence my own opposition to it whenever it is proposed.

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alleoops

Mon 03/27/17 04:59 PM

Yes, it is privately run, which makes even more scary. The county still oversees and appoints board members. No nepotism or cronyism going on there. Other than an investigation every year or two, things are great.
Now how you gonna improve on that?
Take a number and sit down. laugh