the context in which I use law is : the system of rules which a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and which it may enforce by the imposition of penalties.


a community has laws, if it is a religious one or a secular one, it makes no difference. The christian laws are not called 'crime' when they are broken, as the secular laws are. In religion, those broken laws are called "sin". In terms of relevance and context they are one in the same. People in any community have collective boundaries and expectations. Some they record in 'laws' with an enforcement system of sorts, (not everyone violating laws is caught, and not everyone convicted of crime was guilty)

But there is a common expectation of boundaries where behaviors are concerned, and there is a common expectation of the potential effects when boundaries are ignored or disregarded.

The difference being, imho, that 'sin' does not change. And sin has repentance and forgiveness, which 'Crime' does not.

Tom puts it better than I can.

A 'sin' is wrongdoing by a believer and a 'crime' is wrong doing by anyone and everyone who is living in a particular area under a particular jurisdiction.

Thus if you are of the opinion that there is no such thing as a God, then by definition, there is no such thing as a 'sin'.

Belief in one of many world religions is a matter for each individual. If you choose to follow one of these, then you must obey the set of rules that comes with membership - but only if those rules do not contradict the rules made by the governors / rulers / representatives / members of parliament / etc according to where you live. Those STATE rules override ALL religious rules in any situation where the two sets of rules disagree. This is something that some religious people themselves do not agree with - hence such dreadful things as FGM committed by people who believe it is 'right' but which is in fact against the law.

I have no problem with religious people believing in their fairy tales, just so long as they don't try to 'convert' me into 'seeking the will of God'. Nobody has ever been able to answer my very simple question, "What EXACTLY is God?" There's no end of advice that says God did this, or God did that, or God created man, and then woman (from a MAN!) but nobody has ever told me what God actually IS.

Sometimes I think people just accept that there is a God, without every questioning what this God really is, and then skip over that difficult bit and go on to tell the world how wonderful She is. A scientist like myself needs to know and understand what we're talking about before we can go further. I've heard how wonderful God is from churches and believers for years and years. I don't need to be told again and again how wonderful She is. Just start at the beginning and tell me what God IS and the rest will all follow, as I know it all having heard it all for the best part of 70 years.

It is a good question for which there may be no answer that our language can define or explain, other than HE created all. And some of his creation made a language, through which they named him many things, where his only explanation was "I am". How does one define what is the very source allowing for definitions to start with. I am.

It is like explaining how something came from nothing, or how it could be that there NEVER was nothing. We believe what we believe, even if there are not yet the words to define it, or not words that satisfy everyone as an 'exact' answer.

The only things I need to define God is 'intelligent' 'creator' and 'Father'. I am not one, I guess, that needs anymore than to know those things to define what he 'is', to me.

I really do find it impossibly hard to understand why so many people believe there is something that has no answer that our language can define or explain. And yet, they seem to fully understand what this God did (create us), what he does (love us all) and he wants from us (adoration on our knees once a week with hymns, prayers and a sacrifice). The best answer I can see is that word, 'creator'. The obvious difficulty with that is the answer to the question, "Who created the creator?" Did he or she have parents? If not where did the creator come from? If the answer is that this being has always been here, it's like my saying (in a previous post) that time never started, it has always been here. I can just about cope with the idea that God is another word for time, but still can't imagine why time itself would have any interest in us humans, or any opinion on what we do.

If time had any intelligence I could easily imagine that the 'stewards of the earth' concept is the only one that time would be interested in. This being would not want us to destroy the planet, yet the mainly Christian USA developed The Bomb. This weapon now exists in many countries, some Christian, some Muslim. Seems the Biblical commandment of, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" has been modified to mean, well, not really but if I want to kill I only have to invent a good reason and it will be OK. How many Christians are pacifists? There were some in the last war who refused to fight and many of those were shot by their fellow believers. Not a good advertisement for anyone to convert to Christianity.

Here's something I found from msn news:

A Bangladeshi actress has been forced to apologise after remarks construed as admitting atheism in a country where people have been murdered for renouncing religion. Safa Kabir, an actress and model who has appeared in top Bangladeshi television dramas, told a private radio station this week she did not believe in the afterlife. "I don't believe in life after death. Actually, I never believe in what I can't see," she said, in comments that some took as a rejection of Muslim beliefs in heaven and hell.

The remarks caused a storm on social media, with footage of the interview going viral, and Kabir faced a torrent of criticism in the conservative Muslim country.
On Tuesday, the 24-year-old then posted an apology on Facebook, denying she is an atheist. "If I committed any mistake, I seek forgiveness from the most merciful. He is the most merciful and forgiving. He will definitely forgive me," she wrote.
"If my words hurt any one's belief, I am sorry for this and I ask for forgiveness," she added in a post that quickly accumulated over 60,000 comments. Atheism is largely taboo in Bangladesh, where nearly a dozen atheist activists have been brutally attacked and killed by suspected Islamist extremists in recent years. Many leading atheists have fled the country and are living in exile in the West.

Clearly one of those countries that does not enjoy the freedom to have your own beliefs. I think they are terrified of the church losing power of people and react to anyone who does not share their belief in a violent way.

Another thing I find very hard to understand: 'Belief' is forced upon people, but you can't do that! Belief comes from within. When I was young I was sent to a Catholic school and learnt all the things that Catholics are supposed to believe in. During the Mass, the bread and wine actually become the flesh and blood of Jesus - yuk! I doubt many Catholics truly believe that, but that is the requirement. After the reformation here in England, the Anglican Church of England changed that bit to saying that the bread and wine are 'symbolic' of flesh and blood. A great deal more pragmatic!

Ephesians 5:22-24 ESV /

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

1 Timothy 2:11-12

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. Exodus 21:7

If, however the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. Deuteronomy 22:20-21.

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. Genesis 19:8

The bible thinks women are 2nd class.

Thanks for checking out those references. It's what I meant in an earlier post, but I don't know my bible well enough to provide those quotes.

That is EXACTLY what I meant when I said that Christians regard women as second class compared with men. I remain amazed that any women in this 21st century can accept that as being the right way to live.

As for stoning to death any unmarried woman who cannot prove she is a virgin........ not only is that such an extreme action that nobody in the so-called civilised Western World would do that but perhaps even more scary is the concept that a woman is guilty (of being not a virgin) unless her 'innocence' can be proven. In modern society we believe in innocent until proved guilty and NOT the other way around.

Throughout this thread I have been shaking my head slowly in amazement at the things such nice people say here and believe in. Nice people on the one hand, but utterly weird beliefs on the other.

I best understand God as the one comprehensive whole truth. Includes both the hard edges of reality and how different people experience the hard edges.

Religion is how one lives their life. It is really just a label.

The last quote (JBH’s post) of the quotes from the Old Testament, is an account of a fallible human who managed to escape without any of those terrible things happening to his family. Submitting to authority is a principle in the New Testament but mainly because authorities are not perfect and this just enables collective work using the authorities in place at the time. There is a correlary principle in the NT to say no to things that are in direct conflict with your beliefs.

It is interesting how believers read something as unacceptable as the quotes from JBH and then make excuses like, "It's Old Testament" or "You didn't understand what it really meant". All this is just wriggling out of stating the obvious, trying to find an explanation that fits with their beliefs.

Bad scientists are people who have a belief and then try to find evidence that might support that belief and ignore any evidence that might suggest their belief is wrong.

It seems to me that believers of a religion are doing exactly the same thing, quoting bits of the bible that support their belief and when presented with other quotes, making excuses to explain those other quotes in a way that supports their belief. Very bad science! It doesn't wash with me!

Not a sin! Adam n Eve weren't married in the eyes of the church just put together by God. Sex before marriage sin rule was made by priests so that they could control people. Sex was one of the things the church had no control over so they came up with rules like: You can only have sex in the missionary position, sex is only to concieve children, sex is a duty not to have fun with, and of course No sex before marriage or u Will go to Hell. Also no masterbation or u will have hairy palms. If that were true every male and half the females would have hairy palms. Like my mom told me U have to try the wares before U buy. I also recommend living together for a least a year before getting married.

Sin was of course invented by 'the church' as part of the control mechanism used to keep people under the thumb. Before about 2000 years ago there was no church and therefore no sin! It's a pity so many people these days are unable to even understand that, let alone accept it as fact.

I agree. Man created religion. Whether something is a sin or not is determined by that religion. For individuals who do not use that religion, it is not a sin. God told Moses and Paul (Jesus did not write in the Bible even though He was part in it) to create Judeochristianity, but it was still nevertheless created by fallible men. I believe the New Testament is an important education for understanding Truth. It feels good to have a spirit.

According to Christianity, which I follow, to look upon another with lust is already sin. The Old Testament has rules like don’t eat undercooked pork, don’t waste money, get rid of anything in your house or building material that has mold in it. Jews have been prosecuted throughout history and are unfortunately a minority in today’s world, but I have Jewish friends, and am mainly for that reason reading the Old Testament. There are rules in it about sex and bodily discharges. Religion is made to be generally relevant and to evolve with the times. I like being celibate, but I think it is more important generally to cellibrate, knowing one’s consciousness was, is, and will be made for greater things than this world.

You are very good at what I would call a “living knowledge”. Many people use religion as the object of worship instead of a form of worship or invest faith in false prophets instead of actual historical experiences of mystery and truth, and slip away into delusion.

Religion is delusion! The bible is not reliable as a source of information and it certainly isn’t accurate. It was written by many and edited many times. There are many contradictions as well.

Without the bible, would anyone believe there is a god? I doubt it. One book fools so many.

before it was written, people had to believe, for anyone to have written it in the first place.

people must also 'understand' that written books are not very old in the grand scheme, so MOST of any knowledge from today of anything older than a thousand years, is most likely EDITED many times and written in many versions from many perspectives.

and technically the bible is not just ONE book, but several which informs as much, if not more, than it 'fools' anyone.

Hebrews 11:3 for example states:
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.


That verse says alot not only about faith, but also how things like atoms and other elements that create 'life' can not be seen by the naked eye(without equipment).

Hy

What did people believe before the bible was written? What did people believe 5000 years ago? Did they have some equivalent to marriage vows and agree to stick with their one partner till death? I greatly doubt it. All the current rules were made by the MEN who invented the concept of a God and all the variations around that which we have today.

The quote from Hebrews is yet another example of picking a bit to support your vewpoint. JBH points out that the bible contradicts itself in many places. Read again my earlier post about what happened when some JWs knocked at my Grandfather's door during a family reunion. Little did they know he was a retired priest and knew his bible inside out. He made complete fools of them!

Since there is no such thing as 'God' it follows that 'the word of God' is a totally meaningless phrase. It's just a story book, written as JBH says by many different people over many years. It was also written in a language that nobody speaks today and can only be translated. There is no equivalent to an English/French dictionary where anyone can look up the original text to see what it means. For many years we have only been able to guess and having done that scholars spend a lot of their time arguing about the correct 'interpretation' or what they 'think' it means.

Some very misguided people think every word of the bible is factually true. To them, I would say, "Which version are you using?" and "What about the obvious contradictions?" Others agree it is not factually true but then argue over the 'correct interpretation' of what it might mean. In the absence of an accurate dictionary, it is completely impossible to be sure of what any of it was supposed to mean. Some of the apparent contradictions might not in fact be contradictions, it might just be that a correct understanding would not only explain it, but also likely have a completely different meaning to that we apply today.

Finally, remember that phrases and idioms today are totally different to those used even a hundred years ago. The actual meaning of words has changed over the years. Take a simple example: What did the word 'gay' mean just 50 years ago? Now think what the words in the original language might have meant 2000 years ago and add the impossibility of an accurate translation and you end up with a book about a non-existent entity the words of which are impossible to understand!

There is clear evidence that prayer does not work despite the Bible promising prayers will be answered.
There is clear evidence that humans invent gods. Humans have invented so many gods that the default assumption should be that a god is a supernatural entity invented by humans. Christianity would need solid evidence that the Jewish god is an exception to this rule but there is no such evidence.
There is clear evidence that religions and gods are propagated through culture by infecting children, and no evidence that they are propagated by gods.
There is clear evidence that Christianity has evolved as human understanding of the world has changed whilst a real, God-given religion, should never need to change.
There is clear evidence that humans on this planet have unequal access to Christianity so, if Christianity were true, billions would be condemned to hell for no fault of their own. This contradicts the Christian notion that God is omnibenevolent.
There is clear evidence that the Bible, supposedly inspired by God, is liberally sprinkled with the type of errors we would expect from its Iron Age authors but would not expect from the creator of the universe.
Christian theology is incoherent to the point of absurdity. God killing his son so he can forgive our future sin is like me breaking my son’s legs so I can forgive my neighbor in case she ever parks her car on my drive. It is quite ridiculous.
There is clear evidence that the arguments presented for the existence of the Jewish God are logically flawed—all of them have been shown to be unreliable. If this were not the case, all honest and intelligent people would accept that God exists, just as all honest and intelligent people accept that black holes exist.
All that is left for Christians is faith and their feelings. We know that faith and feelings can be used to believe in any god at all—including non-existent gods. So faith and feelings cannot help us determine if Christianity is true.

The universe and what we are seeing is all a naturalistic process. One of the theories about how the universe came to be, the big bang theory, is that it happened naturally in a quantum vacuum. That undercuts religion right there. People say, “You can’t get a universe from nothing. You’ve gotta have God.” But you can, if you conceive of nothing as the quantum vacuum of outer space.

Faith is simpler for some than others. Ego is a very solid wall to crack.

repeatedly claiming 'clear evidence' does not make it true(or false).

When we try to view the Bible from only human ego and desire, as if God is supposed to be serving US, instead of the other way around, we always end with the discussions of how He does not make sense because HE is different than we are, or does differently than we do, or doesn't give us what we want, or lets things happen that we don't want. I understand why it is so tempting to dismiss God for not falling into our HUMAN boundaries and expectations in every way WE want or expect.

I am not sure what 'everybody' does or thinks, or every 'honest' or 'intelligent' person believes. I am both honest. And according to school grades and IQ tests, I am fairly "intelligent."

And I know that I believe the world exists through intelligent design, that books have been written to describe events of 'biblical' times, and those books contain important lessons from Jesus life and inspired of that intelligent creator.

I would first point out the bible does not 'think' any more than our history books do. It is a collection of books of what people did and thought.

secondly, deuteronomy and Exodus were regarding a specific people in the OLD TESTAMENT who were held to the highest standards for being chosen.

In that culture, there were PRE CHRIST and largely cultural values, instead of CHRISTIAN ONES.

When we were saved by Christ, the NEW TESTAMENT, then laid out the innate equality of us all in our relations with God, and it also laid out the blueprint of how we are best able to live serving him and according to His design.

I do not feel second class. Christ never gave an example that women should be 'second class'. In fact, I would say 'class' is also a more modern concept created by human ego and revolving around worldly statuses like finance or authority.