No pudding = no proof.

Show me proof of any deity.

Not "look at the flowers/stars/ crystals/beauty of X, that's so perfect/intricate/unlikely etc. that surely it is proof that god made it"

Not ancient writings of what some guy thousands of years ago believed.

Not that millions of people believe X for thousands of years so it must be true.

Not because ancient statues or carvings or songs can be seen/heard.

Something not reliant on "faith". Any proof ?

I'm an agnostic, but I do get the idea of belief. The moment a belief gets proven it stops being a belief.

You cannot prove if something doesn't exist by telling there are no proofs of it existing. There are no proofs of something "not" existing either.

ever witnessed a miracle [scientifically a fluke]?

ever been in a situation where you should be dead, but yet remain with us?

my personal experiences can only help me to define what it is I feel is the presence of God.

I can tell you situations, but it would require you to believe me without any doubts.



my second grandfather on my mother side died and we were travelling to his viewing/funeral and some how managed to turn onto the wrong highway. we were going to Owensboro, Ky and ended up in West Virginia with car issues stuck on the side of the road. literally for hours no vehicles passed by. it was so hopeless that my dad thought he should begin walking to find something. my aunt suggested we pray first. as we were praying a semi from nowhere showed up and stopped just beyond us. the driver got out and came to us and offered to take us to a truck stop another 1 1/2 hour drive down the road. this road literally only had a few stops for food and gas along the way.

anyways, we made it to the truck stop. but what was unusual was the driver was talking to us about God. he said, I know you are believers and will be heaven. odd thing to say. but we just were happy for the ride. now, if you know anything about the highways in west virginia running east/west you know they go up and down continuously. very hilly with lots of high plateaus and low valleys. after we were safely dropped off at the truck stop we stood there along roadside watching this semi leave. it was just a feeling of awe in his presence and we just had to watch him leave. it was a gesture of kindness I/we had never knew before because there was safety and assurance in a complete stranger.

so we watch the semi climbing this plateau and reaching the peek before descending to the valley. the next rise was even higher and we just kept watching. according to my parents and both aunts with us, we had stood watching for nearly 45 minutes and never saw this semi again. it had just disappeared. when our vehicle was running we went the direction we watched the semi since it was taking us back to Kentucky. no semi off to the side of the road or anywhere. it just vanished. it virtually was impossible to have escaped us as we stood there just watching.

to this very day, we believe we met an angel of God.


I have many more stories that include cheating sure death, unexplainable occurrences, things that just don't add up that resulted benefitting me. to me, this was/is the presence of God revealing Himself to me.




but ultimately, you need your own experiences to understand. because you don't know/understand my circumstances when these occurred, or how bad the situations were when things miraculously happened.

I understand where you're at with this.
Deities are part of religion.
Religions contradict themselves frequently.

There are forces in the Universe that are beyond our ability to fathom.
Some might call those unknown forces God but nobody actually knows or can prove much of anything in the Universe.
We don't even understand our own brains and we carry those around with us.

There are a few comparisons that can be made if you stretch your thinking a bit...
GOD = The Alpha and the Omega (first and last).
UNIVERSE = Existed before anything and will exist after everything.

Afterlife = you go somewhere after you die.
1st Law of Thermodynamics = energy can be transformed from one form to another, but can be neither created nor destroyed.

GOD = is everywhere and in everything
UNIVERSE = is everywhere and everything

Creation = Creation took 7 days
Relativity = relative to the Universe as a whole 14 Billion years may only be 7 days, or one day?

It takes the Sun 225 Million years to circle the Milky Way. So, if the Sun is 4.5 billion years old, that makes it about 20 galactic years old. If the Sun has a total lifetime of around 10 billion years, then it has a total galactic age of around 42 galactic years. Plus, the Sun is suspected to be a 2nd generation star because the elements that are present in its debris field (the solar system) had to have been created in a supernova of another previous star.

No offence, but your entire premise "old saying" is wrong.

The proof is not in the pudding.

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

That's the expression.

No one can prove God to anyone else. You either believe or you don't. If you don't, that's fine. (imo)

I do. And that's fine too.

So show me the pudding.

Pudding?

God speaks to us. Perhaps not all of us listen. The greatest reason why so many have converted to Christianity is due to this inner voice, and not because of any outward physical event or condition.

Having a spiritual life is much like thinking. Can you prove you are thinking? Do you ever "talk" to yourself in your head? Can you prove that?

Believing in God or not is a choice. It is also a conscious choice. A deliberate choice.

As such, I am not here to change the choices you have already made. But I am here to tell you my story.

I am sure you have heard stories from Christians that just missed that car, or how God got them a job, etc. And I am sure when you hear these you tend to roll your eyes. But there is something that God does via His Holy Spirit that can be pretty difficult to put in that class.

I was healed.

Yes, it was a physical healing and it happened many years ago. I was 18 at the time. I went to a Christain fellowship in Deerfield (Illinois, I am from Chicago). It was held in the township building on a Wednesday evening. Not sponsored by any Christian organization. I suppose you could call it non-denominational.

Chairs were set in a circle, with one chair set in the center. Eventually, I was asked to sit in the center. Those there all prayed and each said something as the Spirit moved. One lady walked up to me from behind and put her hand on my back. I felt a warm sensation there.

Later I learned that my back had been healed. I said nothing to anyone about my back problems. My mother made me stay home from school because I would be in such pain.

Some have asked about X-rays. There were some taken, 47 years ago. But I don't have them.

But I would direct your attention to Kathryn Kuhlman. I have been to her services and I knew a woman that studied under her for 9 years. What many people don't know is that at her services she had a group of doctors that would randomly select people from the crowd to examine, they would examine those leaving who claim they were healed and would follow up with another examination 5 years later.

I saw her at the Shrine Auditorium in California. It holds about 6 thousand people. It was full that afternoon and I would say, conservatively, about half were healed that day. There were all types of ailments. Brain tumors, cancer, polio just to name a few. At the end of her service, there was a huge pile of wheelchairs, back braces, and various other medical type paraphernalia.

Kathryn Kuhlman died in 1976. And with her died an era. No one in history that I know of was able to affect so many people.

I invite you to look her up and read about her. She had written a couple of books.

It might be easy for you to belittle what she had done. But I have known several people who were healed at her services. Their lives were dramatically changed.

A word of caution:

Invariably, whenever I talk about Kathryn Kuhlman someone brings up Benny Hinn. I was not talking about Benny Hinn. He had no connection with Kathryn Kuhlman other than mentioning her name. Please refrain from comparing what he does with what Kathryn Kuhlman did.

There are things that cannot be explained , science has has tried .

there is no scientific test for proving love, beauty or hatred yet they exist.

There are thing outside the scope of the human mind that cannot be explain , this is why religion is popular because they attempt to explain those things

Most scientists don't believe in Miracles because most cannot explain it.

You ask Notbeold, show me the pudding? what exactly do you want me to show you?

I have tons of questions for people like you.

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

Why is Earth the only planet in our solar system that contains life?

How do you explain the human brain? if according to people like you Man evolved from Apes, why aren't apes brains more human like? and the movies of the planet of the apes dont count.
why do many cultures have some type of deity or God like structure, even though China and Marxist Russia tried to ban religion.

Too many questions that man cannot answer.

The Egg ~ The chicken is a result of genetic mutation of cross fertilization. Its the DNA compatibility of the fertilizing donors that allowed the zygote to grow into a chicken. It was a chicken egg before it was a chicken.


Who says it is?
We have not made an exhaustive search of the entire solar system to make such an assumption. Not only are the components for life abundant in our samples, there are places in the solar system like sub-surface oceans, water and temperature variations.
NASA is still looking for life on Mars. They are even sending a probe in 2020 to drill for samples.
Plus, planets may not be the only place life can exist.
Nobody knows what is out there.


Because they are on a different evolutionary path than homo sapiens.
Nothing is going to be 'like' a human brain except another human brain.






Because humans possess an imagination and live socially.

Tom, Tom, Tom.



Why do the Cleveland Browns Sucks?

Why haven't the Rangers won the Stanley Cup since 1994?

Why has Keith Richards outlived Kurt Cobain,Scott Weiland,Amy Winehouse,Hendrix, Joplin,Bon Scott,John Bonham and others.

Well, lets see...
The Browns suck because they are stigmatized by their geographical location in Cleveland. I know, I've been to Cleveland.

The Rangers haven't won the cup because other teams are more skilled.

Keith Richards will out-live us all. It was part of that contract he signed in a sacrificed virgin's blood.

Those who come to God , come by faith .
Seeing isn't always believing.
I find it interesting that those who lack faith in God demand proof of His existence.

If you truly want to know that God exists , than you will know that He absolutely does.

Don't allow the "wisdom" of the world to entangle your mind/soul and become a stumbling block to the riches of God's glory.

there is another old saying

absence of proof is not proof of absence

If God exists ( I believe He does), Proof will be forthcoming.

someone once probably said 'prove the world is round' and until the proof, they didn't believe, but it was TRUE without them needing to.

Well, I been there/done that and it made no sense.
Now, I don't base my beliefs on what others tell me I should or shouldn't believe. Afterall, they're my beliefs.
I gain wisdom from life experiences not something I read in a book or listen to people dictate to me over and over and over.
My beliefs actually make sense to me, since its my life, that's all that matters to me.
I have inner contentment because I am not constantly struggling to find reason in the conflict of religion.
If someone finds contentment in their religion, hey, go for it. Doesn't matter to me.
But, if they are not finding inner contentment, well...you figure it out.

Yes, I agree.
To prove God exists or doesn't exist would require examination of everything in the Universe from the macroscopic realtivity of the Universe as a whole to the smallest possible existence of energy.
This is because as long as there is something unknown in the Universe, God could exist.

However, by the time we have knowledge of 'everything', 'everywhere' and 'everywhen' our definition of God may have changed.
All belief is based in ignorance (lack of knowledge).
NO, I'm not calling anyone ignorant.
Just saying that if you know, there is no need for belief.

thats a bit of a semantic argument

I could say I believe the sky is blue, or I know the sky is blue

both are my acceptance of what I have been told or how something has been explained to me ...

believeL accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.

Been where? Did what? What didn't make sense?

I don't base my beliefs on what anyone tells me neither.
I gain wisdom from lifes experiences as well , but like most of us , also from books.
Why would anyone believe due to someone dictating repeatedly?

Your beliefs "actually" make sense as opposed to what?

If they are your beliefs then yes they should make sense.

Religion is mans way to reach God.
Jesus Christ is God's way to reach man.
No struggle.

Without Christ no one can have sincere contentment.
There is a void in all of us that only Jesus Christ can fill. Nothing else cannot fill that void.

I sincerely hope you truly do find (if you will) contentment/peace that only Christ offers through His sacrifice .

⚘

I don't have a void in me that needs filled.
You are trying to tell me that anyone that is not a Christian has no sincere contentment? I think there are a few billion people that will disagree.


Been to church.
Followed religion.
None of it made sense.
All of it raised conflict in my contentment.

It wasn't until I dismissed religion that I found inner peace and contentment. I have more Joy in my life.

I am not filled with worry.
I don't fear death.
I don't need a reason for bad things that happen.
I don't need a reason for good things that happen.
I conduct myself based on my own morals and values that, yes, are rooted in my past religion but are justified by me.

Wisdom is gained by experience.
Reading is an experience.
So is watching the grass grow, paint dry and dust settle.

All experiences do not gain you wisdom.
All wisdom is not good wisdom.

Maybe you were going to the wrong church???
Maybe the teachings were not of God???

I don't know.

But, what I do know is that all humans have a void that only Christ can fill through His sacrifice.

There are no exceptions.

Okay, if that makes you happy, go for it.
What you believe or anyone else believes makes no difference to me.
I don't live behind your eyes, I live behind mine.