Topic: Electric cars and road repair costs
Reply
indianadave4's photo

indianadave4

Mon 12/17/18 08:03 PM

Thirteen years ago Congress subsidized the development of electric powered cars. Since then electric car sales have become a viable product.

However, because they don't purchase gasoline they don't contribute to roadway upkeep. It seems reasonable that this subsidy should be ended and some sort of user fee (comparable to gasoline taxes) for road and highway upkeep is reasonable.

If not, gasoline tax revenue will decline forcing states to increase already high taxes on gasoline.

Opinions?
oldkid46's photo

oldkid46

Mon 12/17/18 08:58 PM

yes, it is going to be a problem. It would seem a high wheelage tax on electric cars would be the best approach. Add that tax to the cost of annual license. Base it on fuel tax paid for similar sized gasoline vehicles and say 20,000 miles per year.
Rock's photo

Rock

Mon 12/17/18 11:05 PM

Let the environmentalists walk,
or ride bicycles.

Toodygirl5's photo

Toodygirl5

Tue 12/18/18 03:33 PM

I wouldn't like a electric car. Gas is not that high in my state.

I think Europe , Paris and places like that need electric cars. People there many can't afford gas.

Hopefully US never gets like that.
Toodygirl5's photo

Toodygirl5

Tue 12/18/18 03:34 PM


Let the environmentalists walk,
or ride bicycles.





:thumbsup:
indianadave4's photo

indianadave4

Tue 12/18/18 03:48 PM


I wouldn't like a electric car. Gas is not that high in my state.

I think Europe , Paris and places like that need electric cars. People there many can't afford gas.

Hopefully US never gets like that.



A good part of why European gasoline is so expensive is the high taxes levied by each country in order to pay for the large social programs.
Toodygirl5's photo

Toodygirl5

Tue 12/18/18 03:58 PM



I wouldn't like a electric car. Gas is not that high in my state.

I think Europe , Paris and places like that need electric cars. People there many can't afford gas.

Hopefully US never gets like that.



A good part of why European gasoline is so expensive is the high taxes levied by each country in order to pay for the large social programs.


I know ! And some Americans want that to happen in USA. At least they act like it by fighting against the POTUS.
IgorFrankensteen's photo

IgorFrankensteen

Tue 12/18/18 04:20 PM

I've come to be very wary and careful when people propose taxes, or doing away with taxes.

One of the things I learned from watching how taxes come about, and how various things are funded, is how politics often ends up creating what are really false pictures in peoples' minds, about how things do and don't work.

Especially with taxes. At the time spending programs are launched, it's common for whoever is opposed to the money being spent, to try to stop it, and it's equally common for the people who support the spending, to claim that it will somehow pay for itself, or that the people who most benefit from it, will be the ones who pay for it.

When it comes to road systems, I don't know that the gas taxes are nearly as FUNCTIONALLY tied into the interstate highways and state highways as many people assume.

Here in Virginia, for example, we are still dealing with a political stunt that was pulled, where the property taxes on cars was greatly reduced. The main reason why the tax was onerous, was that it was a lump-sum tax that hit everyone once a year, rather than being taken out a little at a time, like sales taxes. A certain governor and a number of state representatives gained office by focusing on that SINGLE TAX, and ended up winning, and getting the property taxes sharply reduced.

The problem was, that nothing in government is EVER as neat and compartmentalized as the politicians claim it is. The property tax went into the general government funds, so taking it way affected EVERYTHING ELSE in the state negatively.

So I'm just saying, don't assume that the gas taxes are as directly tied to road maintenance as you've been led to believe.
indianadave4's photo

indianadave4

Tue 12/18/18 05:00 PM


I've come to be very wary and careful when people propose taxes, or doing away with taxes.

One of the things I learned from watching how taxes come about, and how various things are funded, is how politics often ends up creating what are really false pictures in peoples' minds, about how things do and don't work.

Especially with taxes. At the time spending programs are launched, it's common for whoever is opposed to the money being spent, to try to stop it, and it's equally common for the people who support the spending, to claim that it will somehow pay for itself, or that the people who most benefit from it, will be the ones who pay for it.

When it comes to road systems, I don't know that the gas taxes are nearly as FUNCTIONALLY tied into the interstate highways and state highways as many people assume.

Here in Virginia, for example, we are still dealing with a political stunt that was pulled, where the property taxes on cars was greatly reduced. The main reason why the tax was onerous, was that it was a lump-sum tax that hit everyone once a year, rather than being taken out a little at a time, like sales taxes. A certain governor and a number of state representatives gained office by focusing on that SINGLE TAX, and ended up winning, and getting the property taxes sharply reduced.

The problem was, that nothing in government is EVER as neat and compartmentalized as the politicians claim it is. The property tax went into the general government funds, so taking it way affected EVERYTHING ELSE in the state negatively.

So I'm just saying, don't assume that the gas taxes are as directly tied to road maintenance as you've been led to believe.


Here in Indiana auto license plates have a tax that provides a small amount of road repairs. The majority of support comes from gasoline taxes.

https://taxfoundation.org/state-road-funding-2017/

According to the tax foundation (address above) most tax income is gathered by the individual state. The state then allocates percentages to each city, county and state road departments. If they have special needs they petition the state. Interstate repairs are made by federal gasoline taxes which is separate from state taxes.

Most repairs are paid for by gasoline taxes. The issue is those paying gasoline tax are paying for the use and repairs. Except for license plate fees electric car owners pay little for road upkeep. As electric car usage expands the revenues will have to come from somewhere else.
Edited by indianadave4 on Tue 12/18/18 05:20 PM
Tom4Uhere's photo

Tom4Uhere

Tue 12/18/18 11:23 PM

Interesting observation, indianadave4.
Decent assessment, IgorFrankensteen.

Lets consider that using the highway systems is not dependent on gasoline use.
Lets consider that people using electric cars will still need to use the highway system.

So, the highways will still need to be maintained no matter the energy source being used.

Since we all know the taxes collected by a governing body is never ear-marked specifically to the product or service being taxed we all can agree that tax revenue goes into a coffer to be used as that governing body determines.
So, the issue is how do we maintain the levels of tax revenue if the revenue generated by gasoline tax slowly diminishes?
Where can the 'difference' be generated?

Some might say to increase the tax on goods and services currently being taxed. That would work.
Others might say to create a new tax that offsets the diminishing tax source. That too would work.
I think it will be a lil bit of both.

Generators and batteries are heavy.
Roads require more maintenance with heavier vehicles.
Look at weight limits on trucks.
Perhaps, one method of offset could be a tax on vehicle GVW.

I've seen charging stations at a few of the larger, recently built shopping centers where you can plug in your electric car for a fee while you shop. I can see how that service might have a tax on it in the future.

In the short-term, I think it will be off-set by higher gasoline taxes but as gasoline and diesel internal combustion engines are phased out, that revenue will diminish, slowly at first then much more rapidly.

One of the problems with purely electrically driven vehicles is the silence. The quiet operation is a hazard to pedestrians. I can see a noise device being heavily taxed but required on all electric vehicles.
In the near future at least. Already making news...
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/quiet-hybrid-electric-cars-must-make-noise-new-u-s-safety-rule

Registration might also become electric/hybrid variable.
Right now, as far as I know, the power source is not tracked in registration. In the future, it might be tracked.
In the future, gasoline/diesel powered vehicles may have an addition tax unless registered as an antique.

Safety inspections also might have additional fees added concerning power source. There has already been an emissions addition to state inspections. These are additional to safety inspections. Why not a similar fee on electric/hybrid vehicles. They could call it a safety check for short circuits or something?

There's all sorts of ways the state can get tax revenue if they deem it necessary. Plus, the state is all the voting people in that state and voters don't always make the best long term decisions.
Its anybody's guess how they will get the revenue but one thing is sure, as a person, we're not gunna like it.

Definitely interesting to see what comes to pass...Good Topic!
indianadave4's photo

indianadave4

Wed 12/19/18 12:33 AM


Interesting observation, indianadave4.
Decent assessment, IgorFrankensteen.

Lets consider that using the highway systems is not dependent on gasoline use.
Lets consider that people using electric cars will still need to use the highway system.

So, the highways will still need to be maintained no matter the energy source being used.

Since we all know the taxes collected by a governing body is never ear-marked specifically to the product or service being taxed we all can agree that tax revenue goes into a coffer to be used as that governing body determines.
So, the issue is how do we maintain the levels of tax revenue if the revenue generated by gasoline tax slowly diminishes?
Where can the 'difference' be generated?

Some might say to increase the tax on goods and services currently being taxed. That would work.
Others might say to create a new tax that offsets the diminishing tax source. That too would work.
I think it will be a lil bit of both.

Generators and batteries are heavy.
Roads require more maintenance with heavier vehicles.
Look at weight limits on trucks.
Perhaps, one method of offset could be a tax on vehicle GVW.

I've seen charging stations at a few of the larger, recently built shopping centers where you can plug in your electric car for a fee while you shop. I can see how that service might have a tax on it in the future.

In the short-term, I think it will be off-set by higher gasoline taxes but as gasoline and diesel internal combustion engines are phased out, that revenue will diminish, slowly at first then much more rapidly.

One of the problems with purely electrically driven vehicles is the silence. The quiet operation is a hazard to pedestrians. I can see a noise device being heavily taxed but required on all electric vehicles.
In the near future at least. Already making news...
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/quiet-hybrid-electric-cars-must-make-noise-new-u-s-safety-rule

Registration might also become electric/hybrid variable.
Right now, as far as I know, the power source is not tracked in registration. In the future, it might be tracked.
In the future, gasoline/diesel powered vehicles may have an addition tax unless registered as an antique.

Safety inspections also might have additional fees added concerning power source. There has already been an emissions addition to state inspections. These are additional to safety inspections. Why not a similar fee on electric/hybrid vehicles. They could call it a safety check for short circuits or something?

There's all sorts of ways the state can get tax revenue if they deem it necessary. Plus, the state is all the voting people in that state and voters don't always make the best long term decisions.
Its anybody's guess how they will get the revenue but one thing is sure, as a person, we're not gunna like it.

Definitely interesting to see what comes to pass...Good Topic!


I'm sure the disparity between tax payers (combustion engine owners) and non-tax payers in the short term could become an issue if electric cars become the majority. In the long term politicians will do something to make up for the lost revenue. They can always be counted on to find inventive ways to part us from our money.

BTW, in my opinion there is a technology that I've said will some day come about. We will still have combustion engines but someone will learn how to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen (Stored water in what we now call a gas tank) and feed the combustion engine directly.

These two don't run as hot as gasoline but someone will (some day) develop a more efficient engine that will do so. this could also reduce fossil fuel emotions. I've been saying this since the early 80's.
Edited by indianadave4 on Wed 12/19/18 12:35 AM
Tom4Uhere's photo

Tom4Uhere

Wed 12/19/18 01:05 AM

I read a lot of science webpages looking for new things happening and water as a fuel source has been in the news quite a bit lately.
I've also seen some prototype cars based on hydrogen cells.

Most gas stations I see have a percentage of ethanol listed on the pump.
We are already operating hybrid engines.

What I see in the near future is electrical motors and generators propelling the vehicles that also have an internal combustion engine with the primary purpose of running a generator.
The engine starts and stops periodically while the car is moving down the road.
This would mean a smaller engine, less gasoline/diesel and a smaller fuel tank. Think about the generators sold at hardware stores. One, two or three cylinders.
Since the batteries are all it will be charging and four wheel-end generators driven by normal motion down the road, the engine would only be needed to maintain the battery charge when the load exceeds the wheel-end output. Put a few turbulence driven fan generators and the load on the engine will be reduced even more.

Then, given our ability to make things more efficient, gas/diesel engines would be eventually phased out.
Mr gadget's photo

Mr gadget

Tue 02/26/19 10:17 PM

I think there is something everyone is missing here, we have the freedom to assemble right, that includes movement throughout, so it is our civic duty to ensure we have the best safest conditions for all people. so that being said, we should include licenses for bicyclist, as well as tabs. Furthermore they should be ticketed just as drivers are.
There that's my rant against bicyclists...
Tom4Uhere's photo

Tom4Uhere

Tue 02/26/19 10:35 PM

Perhaps the solution is a tire tax.
As far as I know, conveyances still require tires.
A tax based on how many tires are on the road surface would make some sense.


It wouldn't be dependent on the fuel source but on the actual road surface deterioration of contact vs wear.

If coupled with GVWR, it could be fair to distinguish between a bicycle and an 18 wheeler.
motowndowntown's photo

motowndowntown

Wed 02/27/19 12:22 AM

Many cities and counties already have a "wheel" tax. And have you looked at the cost of yearly license plate renewal lately?
Sammy Dan's photo

Sammy Dan

Mon 04/29/19 04:05 PM

As far as tires go, there is already a disposal fee. You pay it twice, once when you buy the tire and again when you get rid of it.

One of the things different between here and Germany is the quality of road surface. There it is required it last 10 years without repair. If it does not the company that laid the surface is required to repair it.

Here we don't do that and we get a lower quality road surface as a result. In some areas it makes more sense for that lower quality, such as areas that are swampy. Even though the road beds are sturdied, they still have a tendency to ripple, causing the road surface to crack and fail. In the northern climates better quality surfacing would work, even with the temperature expansion and contraction caused by ambient temperature changes.

Many states already do a GVW type tag for a license plate. It's not new by a long shot. I can remember as a boy seeing tags with a code related to vehicle weight.

Gas taxes will go up. It's been a while since the federal taxes were raised. One day they will decide they need to up the amounts coming in to cover the costs. Same with state taxes. Recently California did just that.
Tom4Uhere's photo

Tom4Uhere

Mon 04/29/19 07:23 PM

I just paid my yearly registration and there is a block on that form that signifies a 'tax' on 'electric' vehicles.
The box was void on mine because my truck is not electric but I'm sure, if I owned an electric vehicle, there would be a fee in that box.