other viewpoints are always welcome Richard .. no need to apologise .

I haven’t seen any recent information confirming a lab leak for covid .. just that investigations with China continue to be hampered . Would be helpful if you can post links for your source so I can see who is saying what :-)

To clarify .. influenza is primarily spread through large respiratory DROPLETS which are unable to remain suspended in the air for sustained periods or distances . Covid in comparison is believed to be AIRBORNE with suspension of fine particles being the primary mode of transmission .

As for lockdown not stopping the spread of the virus .. I disagree completely . Take a look at what happened recently in NZ .. we have been without community transmission or lockdown for a large part of this year .
one case of covid in the community was detected on the 17 August ( linked to a recent delta outbreak in Australia ). The whole of NZ went into immediate lockdown on the 18th of August . Within days the outbreak had grown . Take a look at this timeline
http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126158263/covid19-a-timeline-of-the-delta-outbreak

Yesterday we were down to 13 new cases . Had that lockdown not happened so fast , I have little doubt we would be dealing with a dire situation . Take a look at how Australia are battling the delta virus to see the difference . I am confident our lockdown will be short . Opening our international border even in just a limited capacity with Australia , exposed NZ to delta . Likely now our border will remain closed while the focus is on ensuring our population is well protected first .

Vaccination does not just prevent spread .. it reduces hospitalisations and deaths . There is just no way hospitals and health services around the world can cope with the fallout of uncontrolled covid transmission (and still care for non covid admissions ) ...that still remains a large part of the problem.

Vaccination does not just prevent spread .. it reduces hospitalisations and deaths . There is just no way hospitals and health services around the world can cope with the fallout of uncontrolled covid transmission (and still care for non covid admissions ) ...that still remains a large part of the problem.

So there was ONE case detected on August 17th and NZ went into lock down on the 18th. " Within days the outbreak had grown".....your words, not mine. IF and ONLY if the lock down worked there WOULDN'T have been an outbreak. When people are FORCED to be in confined spaces logically the chances of being exposed to a virus would be increased. Data, which I actually have confidence in, shows there is a very low risk to NO risk of cavid being transmitted in normal outdoor activities.

From an article on JonathanTurley.org from May 11, 2021,
https://jonathanturley.org/2021/05/11/cdc-admits-that-it-miscalculated-the-risk-of-outdoor-covid-transmission/


"The New York Times is reporting that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was relying on a faulty study in declaring a 10 percent chance of the transmission of Covid-19 outdoors. After using the “miscalculation” to support outdoor mask mandates for over 300 million Americans, the CDC now says that it is more like one percent. It is astonishing that such a key and controversial component of our Covid policies was not just based on a miscalculation but never actively questioned or reexamined to discover the error.

The Times’ Leonhardt noted “There is not a single documented Covid infection anywhere in the world from casual outdoor interactions, such as walking past someone on a street or eating at a nearby table.”


ACTUAL data shows that being outdoors is safer than being FORCED to remain indoors.

This is WHY I posted earlier:
"In the not too distant past I was doing extensive reading/research to make intelligent decisions. I've pretty much given up listening to the "experts".
What they told us last years is irrelevant this year,what they told us last week will be irrelevant by next week. It's as though they are using the S.W.A.G (spontaneous wild arse guess) methodology to give guidance."

Edited to say Some people say anyone who questions the science are science deniers...........I contend that those who don't accept ACTUAL data are the ones in denial. Science, much of which is theoretical, should always be questioned until it is proven, data should never be question and in fact it's what proves science to be more than just theoretical.

hospitalizations are up 300% in the US, including those who have been vaccinated that have either had bad reactions and those that did not reach full immunization .
the most effective defense against the virus is still to get it and recover from it.
harvesting live antibodies from donors is still in wide use in hospitals. for those who can afford the treatments. I'll try to find some links.. but since they dont fall into line with the governments official statements on the subject. most search engines and social media have removed or blocked access to them.

here is one out of the UK republished by the new york post.
https://nypost.com/2020/09/11/chinese-virologist-says-she-has-proof-covid-19-was-made-in-wuhan-lab/
though in the same article, her claims were dismissed by a califoria virologist. so it litterally becomes he said ,she said.
here is another, that supports the possibility. since the lab was proven to be working on it.
https://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/
this is out of india.
https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/world/china-coronavirus-wuhan-lab-covid19-rare-genome-709831

the advantages of vaccination vs natural infection have been discussed on previous pages . Someone with a mild infection may not have the most effective immune response or protection it depends on viral titres and individual immune response . It is unclear if a natural infection with one strain of covid provides protection against other strains (such as delta) . Sorry I don’t have time to look back and find that discussion but it was fairly recent on this thread .

My understanding of the lab leak theory is that at this stage it remains a “possibility” . The initial international WHO investigation that took place in China failed to answer questions . Requests have since been made for a new investigation , which China have not yet agreed to .

That one case was someone who presented with symptoms and was tested . At that stage there was no record of how many undetected cases were in the community . Delta takes as little as 3 days for transmission to be evident but that is variable . Asymptomatic spread is also possible . Our quarantine practice covers 14 days as it can take that long for someone to test positive . Acknowledging that variability , Repeat testing is done on day 0, day 3 and day 12 within that 14 day period .
Possibly you are overlooking the transmission lag time and exponential growth . I can understand international reaction to lockdown for one case of delta . At that stage it was unclear how delta was circulating in. NZ . Although we had cases in our border quarantine facility from international travellers /returning New Zealanders with travel exemptions . They required a negative test prior to leaving quarantine . It was important to understand if Fort NZ border protocols had been breached :-)

From a control stance .. It is more concerning to have cases where the source is unidentified than to have an outbreak where cases and contacts can be linked to an infection source . Also important to trace genome sequence of virus to know what mutation is responsible . Our lockdown from that one case was initially for three days ., the time of Delta transmission . As there was evidence of increasing cases and community spread the lockdown was extended . I fully support that . It was the right choice . Only one of our cities ., Auckland remains in full lockdown and it is expected that will drop shortly . The remainder of NZ is now in level 2 lockdown . Also due to be reviewed .

As for outdoor spread ., concerts, sporting events , funerals etc anywhere there are large numbers of people in close proximity have been connected with super spreading events . Likewise church congregations , pubs , restaurants , conferences ... gyms.. . again anywhere large numbers of people are gathered indoors in close proximity increases the risk of exposure with airborne spread . Sure there may be less risk outdoors compared with confined or poorly ventilated indoor spaces .. that is only part of the equation and does not account for viral load, duration of proximity to others and host immunity . In our level 2 lockdown .. restrictions are set on the number of people who can gather both indoors and at outdoor events . When our lockdown finishes ., concerts etc will likely be back on the agenda ., that is something we have already been able to enjoy in New Zealand this year . Apart from international travel restrictions life here was pretty normal prior to this lockdown . I am confident that will resume .

To clarify .. influenza is primarily spread through large respiratory DROPLETS which are unable to remain suspended in the air for sustained periods or distances . Covid in comparison is believed to be AIRBORNE with suspension of fine particles being the primary mode of transmission .

to clarify they are both spread through the respiratory exchange of fluids through close contact with infected people ( that is droplets and vaper caused by breathing). this is why we are suppose to keep our distance
wash our face and hands often, limit facial contact around the mouth and eyes, keep surfaces wiped down with disinfectant and wear face coverings that are mostly un effective, unless they have an approved rating of M-95 or higher.
many experts have said. if you can detect odors from the surrounding environment a virus such as the flu and covid, can get through as well.
and since the moisture from your breathing collects in that mask, it actually can become a breading ground for a virus. which is why they are not recommended for prolonged use, and recommended that they should be changed often. which most people dont do.
there is no evidence showing that covid-19 remains viable as a sustained airborne disease.

I posted “There is not a single documented Covid infection anywhere in the world from casual outdoor interactions, such as walking past someone on a street or eating at a nearby table.” I made NO comment about large confined space gathering. Lock downs are imposed to STOP ALL gatherings, small and large. I have no problem with restrictions but I do have a problem with "one size fits all" draconian rules and regulations. Here in the United States we were told if we were good little boys and girls we would be able to have a SMALL family gathering OUTDOORS to celebrate our independence from England.
Really??? As an adult I need permission to celebrate a holiday at MY HOUSE?????

At the beginning of the virus the public has been told that lock downs and quarantine will stop the spread of covid and "bend the curve" of hospitalizations. I can understand giving this guidance when little was known
about the virus. When the rate of infections in FORCED lock down areas and areas NOT under lock down WERE BASICALLY IDENTICAL the guidance DIDN'T change.

I have yet to hear ANY expert who have said that vaccines are effective, who have encouraged people to get vaccinated, that have said that the unvaccinated pose a risk to the vaccinated. Yesterday President Biden said the unvaccinated are a threat to those who are vaccinated. He gave NO science that backs his claim and justifies FORCING people to get vaccinated. He said the mandates WEREN'T about freedom. Just how ISN'T FORCING people to do ANYTHING NOT about freedom of choice????? Mandating what people MUST do or MUST not do is how totalitarian/dictators control people.

At the beginning Dr. Fauci told Americans that masks were not necessary. Since then he has gone on to tell Americans that they could better be protected by wearing MORE than one mask. Fauci has denied there is a meaningful differences between the types of masks. Yeah, the man who said that no one should be wearing masks went to saying just put a cloth or something over your face, to wear more than one mask is still considered by some to be the foremost "expert" on COVID in the United States. In 2017 Anthony Fauci made a very strange prediction, with an even stranger certainty. He said “There will be a SURPRISE OUTBREAK. There’s NO DOUBT in anyone’s mind about this.” How could Fauci guarantee a surprise outbreak to happen during the first term of the Trump administration? What did he know, that we don’t?

I'm not a conspiracy kinda guy but I'm not going to ignore such a blatant declaration by Fauci. Something is going on that ISN'T being divulged by medical "experts" who are dependent on government financing which makes them politically motivated.

I have responded to most of your post on Bart’s political thread so won’t bother repeating it here .

Your claim that there is no evidence of casual outdoor transmission is incorrect .

scroll through report to table detailing cases and outdoor activity resulting in covid transmission .

http://academic.oup.com/jid/article/223/4/550/6009483

I DIDN'T make the "claim" that there is NO "evidence of casual outdoor transmission".
What I DID post is "The Times’ Leonhardt noted “There is not a single documented Covid infection anywhere in the world from casual outdoor interactions, such as walking past someone on a street or eating at a nearby table.” I posted SOMEONE ELSE'S claim. I NEVER claimed there was NO RISK in ALL outdoor settings and neither did the persons statement I posted. Are you trying to conflating "casual outdoor interactions, such as walking past someone on a street or eating at a nearby table" with ALL outdoor activities????

I looked at the article you referenced. They did report "<1% of transmissions happened outdoors" Under "Conclusion" is the following:

While it has been acknowledged that spending time outside has general health benefits, our review posits that there are also benefits in reducing transmission of SARS-CoV-2 by reducing exposure time (substituting time indoors with time outdoors). These results suggest that moving activities to outdoor settings may reduce infections and ultimately save lives. However, it is important to note that infections are possible outdoors and the advantage may be overtaken by relaxed mitigation efforts.


Did YOU see that????

People will NEVER live in a world that is risk free. Driving to a store has risks, walking down a sidewalk has risk, surfing has risks and even cooking food has risks.

My point has been that we have been getting guidance that has been contradicting past guidance. It's as though the "experts" and politicians are using this Covid-19 and every variant as a justification to take away basic human rights, as a justification to control people. I can't remember who is was or where they were from but a person "explaining" new restrictions actually said "this is the new world order". Was that a poorly worded remark or was that the a slip of the tongue? She could have said the new restriction where because of the world we live in today.

sounds like you are not searching in the right place .. there is updated scientific information that supports airborne transmission of covid .

http://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-coronavirus-aerosol-droplets-airborne-evolution/amp


http://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736(21)00869-2/fulltext

http://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abd9149

http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126194048/airborne-transmission-of-covid19-more-widespread-than-previously-believed--study ncov/science/science-briefs/sars-cov-2-transmission.html

http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126194048/airborne-transmission-of-covid19-more-widespread-than-previously-believed--study

As far as pros cons and efficiency of mask wearing ., that has also been discussed in depth already . I will however add, that
N95 masks require “ fit testing “ before use ... any breach of the seal and they are ineffective . Likewise application and removal if not performed correctly increases exposure risk . A “95” specification means they have a 95% efficiency (when used correctly ) .

thanks blondie, keep in mind what I said.. sustained airborne viability.
is not the same as not breathing it in and catching it in a confined space.

airborne- in open air floating on air currents the virus is not shown to viably exist, beyond speculation and theory.

it is found in close contact closed environments,
my point was it is transmitted just like the flu with a similar viability of transfer both airborne (breathing) and through surface contact.
the virus has a 3 hour viability with a 1 hour projected half life of infection possibility.
there are no cases shown where there has not been direct contact from a host either by touching a contaminated surface, or being in close proximity to them in a closed environment. there been nothing shown where breathing free air in an open environment has any case proven risk.
what I said about masks is true and born out. no matter what kind of mask option, they have to be properly fitted . but unless it is a M-Kn or N rated mask.. they will offer only minimum protection if any at all.

airborne transmission is now believed to be the PRIMARY way that covid spreads . If you are referring to contact as contact with fomites that is a secondary transmission mode that carries a lower risk of infection . (Refer links below )

“Close contact” refers to the distance you are from an infected person and the likelihood that you shared the same air and have been exposed to the virus .

“When a person is identified as a Close Contact “ generally they have been in the same place at the same time as someone infectious with Covid .

Airborne transmission occurs indoors as well as outdoors .

A study showed covid transmission in a large apartment complex where both indoor and outdoor airborne transmission was believed to have occurred . Indoors the virus was detected on multiple levels of the apartment complex . The conclusion drawn was that ..,

“The airborne transmission of coronaviruses via the outdoor route could be a significant risk for residents in high-density

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fbuil.2021.666923/full

http://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abd9149
Airflow ,temperature , humidity , ventilation , filtration and infectivity of viral titres impact on how long covid can remain viable in the air and how widely it is dispersed .

Can you add the link stating .. 3 hours .. was that pre delta ??
If the information is not your own you need to quote the source

at this point blondie, you are just verifying what I have said about it being transferred just like the flu breath from infected to non infected(airborne) close proximity, in high density. and surface contact.
a large apartment complex where contact is made on multiple common surfaces, spreads the virus to others making the same contact with them. samples of free air have not shown the virus still being viable in an airborne state out side of a close or confined space to be any different then the flu. which is still my original point.
I thought I posted the link showing the 3 hour with a 1 hour half life, I did not save it. this is not the same article but it has the same information.
https://www.acep.org/corona/covid-19-field-guide/home-safety/covid-19-aerosol-and-surface-stability/
this is the CDC explaining what is meant by airborne.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/cdc-covid-19-airborne-transmission-5081242

https://www.pennmedicine.org/updates/blogs/penn-physician-blog/2020/august/airborne-droplet-debate-article

I don't have a problem with "guidance" evolving UNLESS it's completely OPPOSITE of prior guidance. Dr. Fauci told us masks WEREN'T effective in reducing the spread of the virus when the pandemic was starting and later not only told us we needed to wear masks he said wearing MORE than one mask was more effective. That ISN'T evolving guidance, those are opposite and contradictory positions.

My problem is with "medical experts", politicians, the media etc. telling me what I should do.

NONE of the "medical experts" have access to MY medical records, nor have THEY EXAMINED ME or KNOW MY PERSONAL RISK factors so how can THEY act as my PERSONAL physician?????

Politicians and the media don't have the EXPERTISE to TELL ME that I HAVE to get a vaccine let alone mandate that I get vaccinated.

They ALL should be ASKING us (not telling us) to see OUR PERSONAL doctors to get PERSONAL PROFESSIONAL guidance based on our INDIVIDUAL medical condition.

I got the vaccine AFTER doing my OWN research and getting advise from a medical professional who KNOWS more than I know, and most importantly KNOWS MY health status and gave me PERSONALIZED ADVISE not an ultimatum. I didn't get vaccinated based on what Trump said, what Biden said, what the media said, what "medical experts" like Dr. Fauci said who DON'T know MY health status. I'm an adult, I don't need politicians, the media or "medical experts" to treat me like a child unable to make my own decisions.