Health related issues that can be controlled? like being fat, smoking, or drug use?

How about we implement a max of 15-20% body fat passport for people to go into places, to minimize the higher risk people getting the 15% and better sick?

The greater evil... is the road that divides people, yet make them participate in a society with no common values

The greater evil... is the road that leads to a lack of autonomy to the individual

Lots of people died for freedom too, ya know

I was referring to health related issues like myocardial infarction, stroke , aneurysm, subarachnoid brain bleeds , pneumonia , menengitis , pancreatitis , kidney/organ failure , sepsis , immunosuppression , cancer any condition which requires hospital level care .

You didn’t answer my question about shortage of hospitals to meet population demands (covid/non covid) . What is your solution for how hospitals will cope with a large outbreak .. that potential still exists until enough people have immunity ?

I am sure you have heard it said that covid will find the unvaccinated . Are you certain the hospitals will cope ? That there will be adequate resources to ensure everyone gets the care they need . I am certainly not . Even if 90% of NZ’s population are vaccinated .. the strain from hospitalisations of non vaccinated will still overwhelm healthcare . Likely people needing elective surgery /cancer treatments etc., will be compromised unless changes are made . Vaccination buys time but unless other changes are made we face an ongoing predicament .

I would think preserving and protecting life is a common value .. though I agree not everyone shares that value .

Autonomy is all very well when that choice affects only you .. when it impacts on others and creates harm then autonomy can be detrimental . Isn’t that what our justice systems are based on ?? Do you accept law enforcement as necessary to protect society from those who choose to behave autonomously in ways that society deems harmful /destructive . Autonomy is an ethical right but it can also have limitations .

Have you been vaccinated Bob ? Do you work in an environment that is mandating vaccination ? Do you have anyone in your life that is vulnerable to covid ?

I noticed you didn't answer mine either!

1) my solution.... first come first serve. People are being turned down surgeries and dying in their attempts for healthcare to address the Rona as paramount. Here, everybody pays into it, but people are getting refused. Horseshlt.

2) Hospitals will be able to cope less if there are mandates. I KNOW (not heard of) several people in the health care industry that took a leave of absence or outright quit when they saw the writing on the wall. Maybe they can recruit janitors if they watched an entire season of ER or House - as long as they are vaccinated.

3) Our justice system was based on innocent until proven guilty - which is an incredible accomplishment to have made - and I don't think you really appreciate the magnitude of that. The right of the individual supercedes the right of a society. Your argument that you are "harming" people by being unvaccinated and plugging up a healthcare system that they pay into as well, is a huge stretch

4) No I do not accept law enforcement is to enforce laws for people who chose to be autonomous. I do not think that a person that refuses to pay for a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt, should be held at gun point and taken to jail. I do support the police. They have a shltty job that doesn't get appreciated. But if there's laws for the police to hold people accountable for not wearing a seatbelt, yet there's no laws to hold somebody who doesn't disclose whether they have the AIDS or HIV to a sexual partner - that has nothing to do with cops and when they arrest.

5) My vaccination status is just as much your business as mine is to how many times you've been treated for STDs, any medication you may be taking, or your menstrual cycle.

I'm not going to answer 6 and 7 because I don't see a point to either question, other than digging for personal info - which shouldn't be addressed in a public forum

Now answer mine! I'll rephrase it

If all you're worried about is the impact it has on the healthcare system, do you feel as though we should divide ourselves on the fat vs average? That is the same autonomy that burdened the health system long before the Rona came around.

I never said anything about obesity TREATMENT.... I was making the comparison from unvaxxed people getting divided from vaxxed - and your rationale.

Your position is, you feel as though unvaxxed people have the POTENTIAL to burden the healthcare system. Fat people IS an epidemic that DOES burden the healthcare system.

Do we need to divide fat vs skinny as well, so we don't burden the healthcare system?

Should we punish fat people with their jobs and social lives so that the healthy can stay even healthier by not having a fat person POTENTIALLY pick up the virus easier due to their poor health and share the same space as nonfat people?

Not defensive at all.... I'm just painting you in the corner using your own rationale


And I'm most definitely speaking to vaccination AND division - which is actually what the topic is about

That's why you won't answer the question!

I have answered your question .. you just didn’t appreciate my answer

I disagree... covid is only a threat to people with compromised immune systems and underlying health conditions

I disagree.... the obesity argument is not nonsensical and imaginary, because it IS a burden on the healthcare system - which is your only valid argument for getting the nonvaxxed, vaxxed. Otherwise it should be an individual choice

I disagree... covid DOES discriminate. It takes out the elderly and unhealthy

The thread was not about the virus.
The thread was about division.
A society cannot properly function without anything in common.

I have removed the points we have agreed on lol :-)

1 and 3 ... No disrespect but you are not a health professional . Healthy people of all ages and demographics , without pre-existing conditions have died from Covid . Delta has changed who is susceptible . It is a much more infectious strain of covid . I am healthy with no risk factors (apart from working in an infectious environment ). Yet I would not underestimate or downplay the seriousness of this disease . .. not because I want people to have their rights taken away but because I care and understand the full potential of this pandemic .

2. The burden to healthcare was not my only argument . I believe I mentioned protecting the economy .. pivotal to all of this is protecting global populations by minimising the spread and risk of covid mutating to something more dangerous .

And lastly .. “a society cannot function without something in common“ ... uniting to preserve life and care for something more than self , seems like a profound “something” to have in common .

Thanks for sharing in this discussion with me bob .. stay healthy and fight the good fight

hey Blondey111, to be honest , if I was having a heart attack and I survived because of the dr. And nurses? I would give them all a big hug or kiss for keeping me from dying, weather they had been vaccinated or not. Hell they could have leperacy if they saved my life. Like I said I’ve had my vaccine so I don’t worry about it effecting me. I’ve heard viral specialists say in the U.S. by March everyone in the us over 12 will have immunity weather from the vaccine or from the virus itself. I would think that with little vaccines in these poorer country’s natural immunity would be excelling rapidly. The US is suppose to be donating millions of doses of the vaccine to these country’s .

Hi Bart apologies I have only just seen your response !!! ...

Having open heart surgery requires a protected environment .. That includes the staff who are caring for you . I appreciate what you are saying and I am sure surviving such an ordeal may alter personal perspective .

I am not sure what viral specialists are basing that prediction on . Clearly they are only considering delta and existing strains . .. over the next five months with international travel now back on the cards , relaxing of social distancing /mask wearing and winter yet to come .. in my mind at least , covid still has the upper hand . As you. can see from the figures I posted the percentage of the global population who have been vaccinated or have been exposed to current strains of covid is still astonishingly low .

My eyes will be on Israel and the UK over the next six months . Perhaps I will be more inclined to have confidence in American predictions once that has passed .

Assisting poorer countries struggling to vaccinate and get ahead of covid has implications for every nation . Uncontrolled spread in any country will just keep perpetuating the transmission cycle and risk . . Travel will act as a catalyst .

Well done for stepping up to be vaccinated Bart .. . Keep safe x

i appreciate your staunch attitude of keeping people safe, first and foremost. That is exactly the kind of attitude all medical professionals should have. Thank you Blondey111 for your devoted service to this pandemic. I still don’t agree with you on the vaccine mandate, but I understand why you feel the way you do.