We can trace the Word of God back to when people spoke and wrote in the actual Hebrew Language. For the New Testament, we can trace back to the Aramaic and Greek. We even have what are known as "Church Fathers" who were at most 1 and maybe 2 generations after the actual Apostles. And their own writing confirms what was in the "original" Aramaic and Greek translations.

Why is that important?

It can be used to properly define what we read in our current Bible.

But there is a big issue. And this issue happens to fall on the Bibles of the Mormons, the Jehova Witnesses, and the Unitarians. And ironically, all three groups have the "same" perception of who Yeshua is. Yes, all three groups are also fundamentally "Oneness." Which the "Oneness" is fundamentally correct. I myself am fundamentally "Oneness," since I know 2 very specific proofs.

(1) Proof One is the triune, triunity, trinity idealism comes from the worship of Baal, which is Satanism.

(2) Proof Two is the Holy Spirit is not a person. The "Original Aramaic and Greek" used NEUTRAL definitions. But in order to have a trinity, a Neutral definition is not going to work. This is why we find in the KJV Bible a bunch of He/Him/His directed towards the Holy Spirit. And when you do side by side comparisons with Compositors who believe the trinity, and when they composed their Linear Bibles (Greek/English), you can clearly see them removing, adding, joining symbols in order to get a masculine pronoun to describe the Holy Spirit.

(2A) So clearly, even the trinity Compositors know the Greek does not verify their own Doctrine. But to hide this fact, they are willing to do what the RCC did 1700 years ago.


So now, this information should be uplifting for your side of the debate. But where the JW's, Mormons, and Unitarians begin getting it wrong, is their claim that Yeshua is not God.

And to ensure as such, they "also" have removed original scripture and added their own twist.


But if we ever want to question whether Yeshua was God or not, we just need to read a version of the Bible that is not recommended by the Mormon, JW's, or the Unitarians.

Even the KJV actually has it correctly translated, but the trinitarians refuse to look at this view in order to believe their own Pagan Beliefs!!


From the Aramaic:
John 14:7-10


ܐܠܘ ܠܝ ܝܕܥܝܢ ܗܘܝܬܘܢ ܐܦ ܠܐܒܝ ܝܕܥܝܢ ܗܘܝܬܘܢ ܘܡܢ ܗܫܐ ܝܕܥܝܢ ܐܢܬܘܢ ܠܗ ܘܚܙܝܬܘܢܝܗܝ
7 If you have known Me, you will have known Abi {My Father} also. And from now on, you know Him, and have seen Him!”

ܐܡܪ ܠܗ ܦܝܠܝܦܘܣ ܡܪܢ ܚܘܢ ܐܒܐ ܘܟܕܘ ܠܢ
8 Philipus {Philip} said unto Him, “Maran {Our Lord}, show us Aba {The Father}, and it is enough for us.”

ܐܡܪ ܠܗ ܝܫܘܥ ܗܢܐ ܟܠܗ ܙܒܢܐ ܥܡܟܘܢ ܐܢܐ ܘܠܐ ܝܕܥܬܢܝ ܦܝܠܝܦܐ ܡܢ ܕܠܝ ܚܙܐ ܚܙܐ ܠܐܒܐ ܘܐܝܟܢܐ ܐܢܬ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܬ ܚܘܢ ܐܒܐ
9 Eshu {Yeshua} said unto him, “I’m with you all this time, and you haven’t known Me Philipa {Philip}? Whoever sees Me, has seen Aba {The Father}, and how do you say, ‘Show us Aba {The Father}?’

ܠܐ ܡܗܝܡܢ ܐܢܬ ܕܐܢܐ ܒܐܒܝ ܘܐܒܝ ܒܝ ܘܡܠܐ ܐܝܠܝܢ ܕܐܢܐ ܡܡܠܠ ܐܢܐ ܡܢ ܢܦܫܝ ܠܐ ܡܡܠܠ ܐܢܐ ܐܒܝ ܕܝܢ ܕܒܝ ܥܡܪ ܗܘ ܥܒܕ ܥܒܕܐ ܗܠܝܢ
10 Don't you believe that I am in Abi {My Father}, and Abi {My Father} is in Me? And The Words which I speak, I don’t speak from My own Soul, but rather, Abi {My Father} who lives in Me; He is doing these works.


Verse 7 clearly states from the mouth of Yeshua, now that people have seen Yeshua, they have actually seen the Father plus they now know the Father.

Verse 9 clearly proves Yeshua is the Father.

Verse 10 clearly proves how Yeshua is the Father, because inside the flesh body of Yeshua is actually the Father!!



So, until the Mormons, Jw's, Unitarians get rid of their manipulated Bibles, and start believing that Yeshua is actually God, NO ONE will want them to visit their home.

Sounds like you are falling into the trap of believing those parts of the Bible that suit your preferences. As I said in my earlier post, many quotes from the Bible can be matched with an exact opposite elsewhere. It is a folly to take any of the Bible as literal truth, it was clearly not meant to be taken that way.

When some JWs called at my parents' house many years ago they offered my Mother a lend of their Bible. When they came back a week later my Mother (a Catholic) told them that there were important chunks of her Bible that had been left out of theirs. No doubt they cut out the bits that didn't reinforce their own particular version of truth!

There might or might not be a higher power but it has no effect on me. I have no interest in that possibility but keep an open mind so that future scientific discoveries won't prove me wrong. There seems no point in try to adhere to a set of rules made up by human beings (all men) many, many years ago. Far better to make my own decisions about right and wrong. I've never had too much alcohol, never done drugs, never been a womaniser. These things have all passed me by as things that some other people do but are of no interest to me. I'm just a regular guy living my life according to what seems right to me. The JWs who visit me don't seem to understand that and, as I said earlier, they no longer visit me. Mormons have never visited me.

If you are directing your yhoughts towards me, I come from a lineage of evangelists, pastors, ministers who taught this stuff in Bible based universities plus preached it, lived it, ate, slept it, breathed it themselves.

And yes, there are points within the Canon that are just examples of how to live that did not take place.

But when it comes to who Yeshua was, being the fact that He is God, those verses we can take as fact.

The reason we can take as fact, is due to the scripture reference I used was directed to His Disciples, who later became the Apostles plus Paul in the Book of Acts. And when Yeshua dealt with His own Disciples, there was no gimmick going on, because Yesua needed His Disciples to understand just exactly who He really was.

I respect what your Grandfather was saying to you, but I believe had he been more specific, he would have said it in a manner I just have!!

Then, who was Jesus (Yeshua) talking to on the crosss when he said "my Father why have you forsaken me?"

Was he talking to Himself?

Also, If Jesus was God, why did He not know when He would return?"

“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

Look at verse 10 and read it carefully. Remember, He is saying this to His Disciples who have seen many great miracles, preached to thousands at a time, who debated the religious zealots and destroyed their attacks every time.

ܠܐ ܡܗܝܡܢ ܐܢܬ ܕܐܢܐ ܒܐܒܝ ܘܐܒܝ ܒܝ ܘܡܠܐ ܐܝܠܝܢ ܕܐܢܐ ܡܡܠܠ ܐܢܐ ܡܢ ܢܦܫܝ ܠܐ ܡܡܠܠ ܐܢܐ ܐܒܝ ܕܝܢ ܕܒܝ ܥܡܪ ܗܘ ܥܒܕ ܥܒܕܐ ܗܠܝܢ
10 Don't you believe that I am in Abi {My Father}, and Abi {My Father} is in Me? And The Words which I speak, I don’t speak from My own Soul, but rather, Abi {My Father} who lives in Me; He is doing these works.
^
This verse is saying "everything Yeshua (Jesus) said, was not even Jesus talking, it was the "Person of God" (the Father) who lived in the flesh body we call Yeshua doing the talking.

The Canon (Bible) states, 2 things come from the Father.
(1) His Word made flesh = if it is the Father's WORD, it means it is the Father
(2) His Wisdom (Spirit) = Holy Spirit
^
Notice, the Word and Wisdom come FROM the Father, not are their own self or Person, they are of the Father = ONE PERSON = ALMIGHTY GOD

This is also how we know God is Omnipresent. While being the Big Chief in Heaven, His literal WORD was in flesh on Earth doing His Will (The Father's Will).


So, the Father created an example for us to see and show us how we are to behave like followers of God. He even showed us how to pray to Himself through the "Lord's Prayer," and like we see on the Cross, He shows us that even through death, we should always be mindful of Him!!

It really is quite genius what Our Father God has done for us. He showed us how to deal with life, how to be thoughtful of Him at all times, how to be an example of Him, how to overcome by Him, how to pray to Him, how to handle this world through Him, and even in death...how to keep our minds on Him!!




Just like your own words you speak. Those words do not know anything until you speak them. So the Father's WORD wrapped in flesh, is only doing what the Father instructs to do. The WORD is not thinking on its own, not doing on its own, its following directions the entire time. So, the WORD that comes from the Father, also has to wait on the Father, to speak in order to do. This is why the WORD could claim such as you ask!!

I think it is because the 'God' concept was invented by us ('man') that people form different groups, having similar, but not the same beliefs. There is of course no such thing as a 'God' and that is why the concept has no meaning for me. It only means something for those who follow one of the many religions, and those people spend time arguing about who is right. Daft!

When the Hebrew people began writing down about their God (which your Grandfather preached about), they had no agenda about being right or wrong compared to other views. The Bible itself is a factual lineage record. My own Jewish ancestry can be traced to it. The writings of their God was specifically being passed down generation to generation.

Things never was complicated until Yeshua came into the picture (Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:) (which ancient Greek philosophers, Satarysts, writers, historians even prove He did exist and was called God. They wrote of Him because they claim He taught to specifically (deny their greeks deities). This obviously upset many of them (IF YOU WANT A LIST OF THEM AND THEIR WRITTEN CLAIMS I CAN PROVIDE THEM).

Anyways, it was Yeshua, who while on Earth (as the WORD/Father) who taught and healed outside of the Jewish people. And then He taught His Disciples to be missionaries to preach this Gospel to those considered by the Jews to be Gentiles.

Paul claiming Yeshua is also God of the Gentiles:
Romans 3:29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:


It was not until the Gentiles were brought into the fold when this DIVISION, BICKERING, ARGUMENT came about. First it was the Roman Catholics, then later on the White Man has literally bastardized any true meaning God had intended. There are not just different sects, but different Denominations. And within those Denominations are sub groups divided from one another. It is actually a mess of sorts and only discourages non-believers more than anything else.

But I can assure you of this one thing, Yeshua was really here.
Ancient Greeks like:

Thallus (52AD)
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)


Phlegon (80-140AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:

“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.” (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place … ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)


Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)


THIS IS JUST A FEW GREEKS WHO I CHOSE TO MENTION.
But I mention them because they prove Yeshua was REAL!!
In these statements, they prove Yeshua was seen as God, that Yeshua was crucified, that darkness fell when He was crucified, one in particular (Phlegon) even writes He RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD!!

Why is this important?
These are ATHEIST confirming this.
And the Greeks took pleasure in their heritage as writers, philosophers, historians, etc.
SO THEY CLEARLY WERE NOT MAKING THIS UP!!

And this Greek knowledge was known before there ever was a Bible!!
So, before we ever had a Bible formed, we had Greek historic views proving Yeshua was God and did all the things we now read in the BIBLE!!

iam_resurrected:

The scripture at John 14:7-10 does NOT reveal Jesus/Yeshua as being the Father. In fact, it does the exact opposite.

Another thing: Your comment regarding the New World Translation (NWT) used by Jehovah's Witnesses that, to quote you: "KJV alone is good enough to reveal their inconsistencies in a side by side comparison" provides no examples of which "inconsistencies" you discovered. Do elaborate.

NeutralZone2

________________
... be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath...." (James 1:19-20)

How does John 14:7-10 reveal just the opposite of what scripture reference I provided in the Aramaic?

You have to literally deny what you are reading in those verses to achieve 2 separate people. How can the "Father Living inside my Body" saying what you hear Me say, and doing what you see Me do collate to 2 people?

The WORD is the "Same" as the Father, since the WORD comes from the Father!!

Let me show you John 10:30-31 in the Aramaic, which is the language Yeshua and His Disciples factually spoke:

ܐܢܐ ܘܐܒܝ ܚܕ ܚܢܢ
30 I and Abi {My Father}, We are the Same!”

ܘܫܩܠܘ ܬܘܒ ܝܗܘܕܝܐ ܟܐܦܐ ܠܡܪܓܡܗ
31 And again, the Yehudaye {the Judeans/the Jews} took up rocks to stone Him.
^
Here Yeshua claims Him and the Father are the Same Person.
^
Notice what the Jews do when Yeshua claims Him and the Father are the Same Person...they pick up rocks to kill Him!!
^
The Jews knew exactly what Yeshua is saying here, that He is their Elohim, the Great I AM THAT I AM!!



The Aramaic Version is 1600 years older than the KJV. If the KJV does not read like the Aramaic then it's not translated correctly.

But in John 10:30, from Yeshua's own language, He confirms that He (Yeshua) is actually the FATHER!!



And to the Bible differences, I was not referring to John 14. I am referring to other verses. I only mentioned John 14 to show what Yeshua was claiming. But I should had just used John 10:30 since it just comes right out and explains it all!!

None of these arguments are important or even relevant to a non-believer like myself. I have a much easier life with no such complications. I can recommend it!

I did not realize anyone was actually arguing here?

If your Grandfather felt it was important to believe in a God, particularly the one from his Bible, why would you think your Grandfather was wrong to believe as such?

I cherished what my Grandfather taught me and others. But it appears that you feel your Grandfather was incorrect and wasted his life believing in something you feel does not exist?

Science in the past 10 years has changed their views towards the Big Bang since the KOBE experiment. They do not even discuss the Bang any more because so much was revealed they now actually no longer can format even a guess as to what happened.

Since DNA, a new research of Biologist are now challenging Darwinism and have proven there are literally a million unanswered questions that Darwin's theories have to be incorrect.

Singularity has never once been discovered in its natural state. Biologist have had to literally manipulate a scenario to make it happen, but do admit, they have never seen out of billions of single cell examples actually change to multi cell organisms.



So if science is striking out, and God is not real to you, what do you believe in?

The arguments I was referring to were those quoting parts of the various different bibles to prove different points. I was saying that none of that sort of argument, or even discussion about it has any relevance to me as I don't need it.

I don't think anyone is 'right' or 'wrong' in their beliefs, people are different. Even two Catholics will likely have different opinions on the finer points of their religion. I don't think my grandfather or any other believer was 'wrong', he just had a different idea about life from that which I have.

There are many gaps in the Darwin theory of evolution, but I find it comforting that new discoveries are continually being made which fill in those gaps. Nothing has yet been found that could possibly be signs that the Darwin theory is 'wrong'. It is still only a theory, but as the years go by it becomes more and more convincing.

What do I believe in? I believe in integrity. I believe in treating others as I would like them to treat me. I believe in being fair. I don't believe in mythical fairy stories that can have no possible scientific proof. I believe in scientific theories that are backed by proper evidence based research.

I am a humanist, which is someone who belives in leading a morally 'good' life with no expectation of reward or punishment following death. Death is as much final for human beings as it is for animals.

You do know that Darwin stole the "Natural Selection" and "inherited Genetics" from others who discovered them towards the belief in God?

DNA alone proves Darwin is wrong on several idealisms. The binary coding in DNA is much like a Computer that requires a program. Evolution is nowhere specific on the accidental side of things to be complicated enough to figure the binary coding to DNA.

Science claims we are all linked by .01%
You do understand that .01% is the bacteria that all life forms are equipped with for natural break down in decomposition or digestion?

Where does that bacteria naturally come from?

Earth, the dirt.

Evolution does not include that we are made up of dirt, it dictates mostly water (which is true).

Only one source in all beliefs and scientific studies that proclaims we are made from dirt is the Hebrew Torah.

I am short for time, but would like to discuss this much further.

But as you can see, Evolution comes short on the most important questions, and scientists (Biologist) are still researching for answers. But I love science and I study everything that is being introduced. The one common theme I have noticed recently, a consistent resending of ideas. Too many failures. And theories that once were used to shove God out of the picture are now being recalled due to proofs being discovered that provide those theories were incorrect from word "GO!!"

Is God Real? - See Why DNA Convinced Former Atheist Dr. Antony Flew

British philosopher, Dr. Antony Flew, was a leading spokesperson for atheism, actively involved in debate after debate. However, scientific discoveries within the last 30 years brought him to a conclusion he could not avoid. In a video interview in December 2004 he stated, "Super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature."1 Prominent in his conclusion were the discoveries of DNA. Here's why.

DNA in our cells is very similar to an intricate computer program.

computer programming:
Photo of binary code computer programming in defined order, just like God has ordered the design of the human body and universe.DNA code:
Photo of DNA chemicals CGTA in ordered rows, much like computer binary code, to show that God designed DNA in the human body.
In the same way, DNA is made up of four chemicals, abbreviated as letters A, T, G, and C. Much like the ones and zeros, these letters are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. The order in which they are arranged instructs the cell's actions.

What is amazing is that within the tiny space in every cell in your body, this code is three billion letters long!!

Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project (that mapped the human DNA structure) said that one can "think of DNA as an instructional script, a software program, sitting in the nucleus of the cell."

Perry Marshall, an information specialist, comments on the implications of this. "There has never existed a computer program that wasn't designed...[whether it is] a code, or a program, or a message given through a language, there is always an intelligent mind behind it."

Just as former atheist Dr. Antony Flew questioned, it is legitimate to ask oneself regarding this three billion letter code instructing the cell...who wrote this script? Who placed this working code, inside the cell?

On June 26, 2000, President Clinton congratulated those who completed the human genome sequencing. President Clinton said, "Today we are learning the language in which God created life. We are gaining ever more awe for the complexity, the beauty, the wonder of God's most divine and sacred gift." Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, followed Clinton to the podium stating, "It is humbling for me and awe inspiring to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God."

When looking at the DNA structure within the human body, we cannot escape the presence of intelligent (incredibly intelligent) design.

Why is DNA important? It's one more proof for God. He designed our bodies. He can also be trusted to design your life.

The last 3 paragraphs after Clinton is from Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project (that mapped the human DNA structure).
^
Dr. Francis Collins mapped the human DNA structure.
^
I would stand on this man's word 100% any day!!

I believe that firm and unambigous language that one is not interested and would like to just enjoy their afternoon would be sufficient. Most religions are not teaching people to share with those who are not open to it anyway. But religions dont have litmus tests to ensure no one pushy is following their doctrine.

I would find anyone knocking on a door for any sharing reason to be the same, sharing a religion, sharing a subscription service, or sharing girl scout cookies. I dont see a reason to be any more/less annoyed by any of them, or to have any more of an issue showing either an interest or a disinterest.

I agree with you msharmony, I am only annoyed by those who are pushy, whether it be a salesman who can't take NO for an answer or a religious person who is insisting that all they say is right. Without meaning to offend anyone, I do think such people are in the same category as conspiracy theorists and flat earth believers because they are very capable of the 'bad science' that quotes everything it can find to 'prove' they are 'right' without ever mentioning anything that is evidence for something they don't believe in.

A good scientist actually tries to disprove their own theories and only by failing to disprove them do they challenge others to disprove them and then finally do they admit that maybe, in the absence of other evidence, their theories might be right.

I go with the scientific majority who say that Darwin was right and 'creationsism' is wrong. That's where most of the evidence can be found, as as I said earlier, every so often another fossil is found that plugs one of the existing gaps in our knowledge.

I will now enjoy my afternoon in the sun. We're having another good summer like last year!

I apologize, I was fishing to see if you do not enjoy discussing the idealisms concerning God, you might enjoy discussing the topics that Science debates regularly.


I will also add, this thread is about how to handle JW's. And you did provide the example of your Grandfather. But after someone quoted me and I responded, You added it meant nothing to you since You did not believe.

You responded to my post answering another poster.
You interjected Your thoughts to a response that was not towards You or had anything to do with You.
And now after doing as such, You go off on a tangent unrelated to my post answering the other poster.

And then You infer I am pushy!!

Do You suffer from Psychological Disorders?
You just exemplified the attributes of one suffering from Narcissism!!

You must be very full of yourself to think that anything in my previous post referred specifically to you. I was doing nothing more than explaining what I believe in and do not believe in and why. Nothing more than that.

Maybe it is you who have a disorder, thinking everyone is talking about you all the time?

Have a nice day

This post:
None of these arguments are important or even relevant to a non-believer like myself. I have a much easier life with no such complications. I can recommend it!

Came after my reply to another poster.
It was very right fieldish in terms of relationship to the conversation.
And one of the reasons I directed a few posts towards you.

Not even sure why you felt you wanted to add this particular post since it had no relationship to anyone or the conversation at hand.

It was just very odd the timing of your post.
Very much like what a Narcissist would do.

I deal with people who have devoted their lives to someone not knowing that someone was a Narcissist. It's out of the blue and non relating comments, like your post I have up top, that have tortured these individuals for years. I call it like I see it. The beauty about the typical Narcissist (chameleons), they are easy to spot and to annoy.

Getting back to the topic.......... the JWs are out again because it is Saturday morning and lots of them stroll slowly along my road, stopping at some of the houses to consult their little lists. Of course they don't stop at my house now but that doesn't concern me.

It would be interesting if someone would like to start a topic on the Mormons. I can't do it because I don't know much about them. I believe them to be a similar offshoot of mainstream Christianity with their own version of the 'truth' - just as the JWs have. Any takers for this new topic?