The term "create' is not one that I really like to use in this subject. Nobody really 'creates' something from nothing because in my opinion 'nothing' cannot 'exist.' Things are "created" from other things.

Yes, Prayer is basically the exact same mechanism. Prayer is the asking or visualizing what you want. There is little difference in prayer and asking the universe, or visualizing with intent. It is all the same law.

It is not true that with prayer you only ask once. You can ask as many times as you want. It is also not true that with visualization you should or have to do it all the time.

Sometimes you can strongly visualize something you want with emotion and intent to have it and then completely forget about it. Then one day is shows up in your reality.

(Since you gave it no further thought at all, you did not generate any 'negative' or 'apposing' thoughts towards it and it encountered no resistance so it came to you easily.)

A better way to describe it is that you design your personal reality. It manifests out of your thoughts and feelings and expectations, good or bad, conscious or unconscious.

Reality is not "sent to you" in the sense that it is someplace out there somewhere. Your reality is always here (with you) and always in this present moment.

No matter where you go.... there you are. You cannot run away from yourself and you cannot run away from your personal reality.

We may claim that we "create" things when we take something that does not seem like much and design or make something else from it. We may need certain things to build a home to live in. We may design the home ourselves. We may build it or get someone else to build it. We say we "created" it because we were responsible for being the moving force that brought it to fruition. We once lived in a mobile home now we have a home. We say that we "created" that personal reality.

If we had just sat on our duff watching the boob tube in our mobile home and allowed junk to pile up around us, and we smoked too much and dropped a cigarette on the couch and burned everything to the ground, then we also "created" that personal reality by the very fact that we did not THINK or BELIEVE we could find a way to build a nice home.

All things manifested or 'created' first start in the form of a thought and/or belief and then an intention to act and create or acquire that thing.

jb

Manifesting your personal reality is not a magical thing. In fact, it is so common that people don't even realize that they do it or how they do it.

But because of our connection to all things, and because thoughts are things that register in the universal mind, (subconscious collective) and because we communicate on that level at all times, asleep or awake, we are co-creators of reality because it is this universal mind that manifests and maintains and 'creates' reality into what our minds give it.


This universal mind works for us, and we are the thinking centers that give orders to this mind. This mind is like a giant computer that cranks out everything we think about and arranges for us to find what we want and for what we want to be drawn to us because we requested or commanded it.

So be it, so it is.

This is what spell casters say after a spell. They are not simply asking, they are commanding the forces of the collective universal mind to do as it is designed to do.

Yes, but that's not a definition of what energy is.

On the contrary, mass itself is concered to be energy in a concentrated and bound form.

All you've given is a quantitative relationship between free energy and bound energy.

Where's the definition of what energy actually is?

You won't find that in a mathematical formula. Mathematics is nothing more than a description of quantitative relationships.

Mathematics doesn't tell you what anything actually is.

It can only tell you how it behaves quantitatively.

That's all that science can tell you about anything.

Science never adresses the question of what anything is. It only addresses how it quantitatively behaves.

Science almost always uses mathematics (the language of quantitative relationships) to describe how things behave quantitatively.

But it has nothing at all to say about what the things are that are 'behaving' quantitatively.

Science has no clue what energy is.

Well, that depends on how you define 'magic'.

In fact, this is why I always use magick with a 'k' (to differentiate it from stage magic or Hollywood magic).

Stage magic is the art of illusion. Hollywood magic is the idea that rabbits can be pulled out of a hat or things can be created from nothing.

However, this is a far cry from the kind of magick that witches perform.

Witchcraft magick is indeed based on transformation and not creation.

Actually, from what I've heard you describe the process of Law of Attraction I'd say that you've got the process of witchcraft magick pretty well enderstood to a large degree.

I think one place where you may differ is simply that witches recognize that the spirit is in everything and therefore they recognize the spiritual value of things such as athames, crystals, etc.

You said to ganonzyther:



The different use is the key.

Witches use these object in their transformation rituals and these objects play a very real role in the tranformation process.

They aren't just empty props. They contain spirit and they take part in the process. Spirit is in everything.

Ganonzyther stated that all knives are not athames. I would agree with that. But at the very same time I would argue that any knife could be used as an athame. It's in the very use that makes it become an athame.

However, witches also believe that if you use the same tool over and over again for your spiritual transformation then this tool becomes more attuned to your vibrations.

Therefore if they use the same knife over and over again as an athame, then that particular knife does indeed take on special properties, and it becomes 'Their sacred Athame'.

It doesn't even need to be a knife. That's just from cultural tradition. It could be wand, or a crystal, or any other consistent object.

It could be a finger!

However, there's a problem with the finger!

The finger is dynamic. It's alive and part of the witch's body. Therefore the finger does not retain or accumulated, or become attuned to the ritual frequencies.

The reason is because the finger is part of the witch's hand and must be use for every days takes and go with the witch through all other moods, etc.

It can hardly build up or retain the vibrational patterns than an obejct like a dagger can.

It is for this reason why a witch uses an athame instead of a finger.

The athame is kept in sacred space and always used for sacred ceremonies and is therefore only exposed to the vibrations of intent.

It takes on that vibrational attribute.

There are very sound reasons why witches use physical tools in spiritual rituals.

They aren't just empty props. They play a genuine role in the tranformation and vibration process.

People who are into the Law of Attraction are focused almost solely on the vibrations.

But there's far more to it than that.

In witch craft everything focuses on the four spiritual elements.



But those are just symbolic.

Their actual meanings are as follows.

Earth = Manifestation
Air = Mind
Fire = Energy
Water = Emotion

Witches use Emotion to raise Energy, and then use their Mind, to transform a Manifestation.

Nothing is created from nothing.

All is transformation.

The people who are obscessed with the philosphy of the so-called 'Law of Attraction' appear to me to simply be people who have somewhat recoginzed the art of witchcraft, but haven't yet fully understood it.

So why, Abra, does it always have to be a competition with you? Why do you think the law of attraction is in competition with your so-called new hobby of witchcraft?


Earth = Manifestation ~~In Tarot Cards: Pentacles = material things
Air = Mind ~~In Tarot Cards: Swords = Mental energy
Fire = Energy ~~In Tarot Cards: Wands = creative energy
Water = Emotion ~~In Tarot Cards: Cups = emotion and love





The "So called" law of Attraction?

That is the law that makes so-called "withchcraft" work.

I don't know anyone who is "obsessed" with the Law of Attraction do you?

And I would like to see how far any of your so-call silly spells would work if it were not for the law of attraction.




So being mad at Christianity doesn't do it for you anymore? Now you are looking for some one else to try to antagonize with those kinds of remarks?

Get back to your cauldron and make some soup you wicked sorcerer!

Sure there are a lot of people who are obsessed with it. Or at least obsessed with making money by writing books about it.

I think it's clear that the people who have started writing books about it are creating their own philosophy to go along with it. They add additional things to the philosophy that aren't required for this so-called "Law of Attaction" to work.

And that term was indeed made up.

Had witches made up the term they probably would have called it the "Law of Transformation".

You don't 'attract' anything to you.

You transform the world around you as well as your inner self.



Calling it the "Law of Attraction" is rather silly actually. That very title implies that the people who made up that phrase don't truly understand the processes of spirital alchemy at all, IMHO.

They think they are attracting things to themselves like some kind of magnet.

Yet when they get down to the nitty gritty of actually describing what needs to be done, what do they do?

They describe the very method that witches have been using for eons to invoke transformations.

Yes, it's silly indeed.

All they've done is rename witchcraft and tried to make it into some kind of new age thing so they can sell books.

A rose is a rose by any other name.

But hey, to each their own.

Abracadabra said:

Attempting to change the world rather than yourself is a futile pursuit as put forth by Wallace D. Wattles in 1910.

I reject witchcraft because many people will use it to project their will upon others or on objects.

Here is what he said:

____________________________

TO set about getting rich in a scientific way, you do not try to apply your will power to anything outside of yourself.

You have no right to do so, anyway.

It is wrong to apply your will to other men and women, in order to get them to do what you wish done.

It is as flagrantly wrong to coerce people by mental power as it is to coerce them by physical power. If compelling people by physical force to do things for you reduces them to slavery, compelling them by mental means accomplishes exactly the same thing; the only difference is in methods. If taking things from people by physical force is robbery, them taking things by mental force is robbery also; there is no difference in principle.

You have no right to use your will power upon another person, even "for his own good"; for you do not know what is for his good. The science of getting rich does not require you to apply power or force to any other person, in any way whatsoever. There is not the slightest necessity for doing so; indeed, any attempt to use your will upon others will only tend to defeat your purpose.

You do not need to apply your will to things, in order to compel them to come to you.

That would simply be trying to coerce God, and would be foolish and useless, as well as irreverent.

You do not have to compel God to give you good things, any more than you have to use your will power to make the sun rise.

You do not have to use your will power to conquer an unfriendly deity, or to make stubborn and rebellious forces do your bidding.

Substance is friendly to you, and is more anxious to give you what you want than you are to get it.

To get rich, you need only to use your will power upon yourself.

When you know what to think and do, then you must use your will to compel yourself to think and do the right things. That is the legitimate use of the will in getting what you want--to use it in holding yourself to the right course. Use your will to keep yourself thinking and acting in the Certain Way.

Do not try to project your will, or your thoughts, or your mind out into space, to "act" on things or people.

Keep your mind at home; it can accomplish more there than elsewhere.

Everything that you've just posted concerning witchcraft is utter nonsense.

You just have a total misconception of what witchcraft is all about.

That's all.

Witchcraft isn't about changing other people.

Where did you ever get that?

I'm sure there are people who have distorted witchcraft just like everything else.

So now I understand. You just have a totally distorted view of what witchcraft is all about.

No wonder you're attracted to the so-called "Law of Attraction".

You just have a total misunderstanding of witchcraft. You make it sound like Hollywood Voodoo.

It may well be that modern people need to view it as something other than 'witchcraft'.

But in truth the so-called 'Law of Attraction' has some major premises all wrong.

They seem to have the process of manifestation down to some degree (very much in accordance with the traditions of witchcraft). But they seem to also have some really weird philosophical ideas tossed in the mix as well.

Whatever.

It makes no difference to me.

I'm certainly not out to convert you.

I've merely recognized that this so-called "Law of Attraction" recognizes many of the techniques of witchcraft, but clearly it misunderstands a lot of the underlying concepts as well.

But I see now that you totally misunderstand witchcraft if you think it has anything at all to do with controlling other people. That's absurd.

Shes also confusing Medieval Christianity with the Law of Attraction. Although thats not really important because "it doesnt matter how it works."

You claim to have used the Law of Attraction to attract to yourself a black cat.

Where do you think that cat came from?

Do you think that cat just popped out of your own mind?

Do you think that you just created it from nothing using pure thought?

If you use the Law of Attraction to get a job are you not controlling (or at least influencing) the people who are interviewing you in some way?

If you don't believe that you are, then how does this so-called Law of Attraction work?

If you aren't using it to influence the world around you, then why use it at all?

Why not just go out and apply for jobs and take the ones you are naturally accepted at.

What would even be the POINT of a Law of Attraction, if it doesn't influence the world around you?

If all you are doing is adjusting your own attitude, then why call that the "Law of Attraction"?

Why not just call it the "Law of Adjusting Your Attitude".

Attraction needs no law. It only needs more attraction

I did not project my will on a specific black cat. I knew there was already a black cat in the making that would come willingly into my experience if I allowed it in and I invited it into my experience. I did not go out searching for a specific black cat.



Certainly not against their will, no. I do not cast a spell on them to hire me.



You learn to match the vibrations of the thing you want and because like attracts like you and it (whatever it is) are drawn together. You can only change your own vibrations, you cannot change the vibrations of other things or other people.

(I tried that once and it works but only temporarily. It is a temporary hypnotic spell.. against the will of the other person.) I don't do that any more because it is a futile waste of perfectly good energy.



Self transformation. Self mastery is more important than the power to control others.

Your will is to be used to direct yourself, not others. You direct yourself for self discipline and then you use it to place your attention on things and experiences that you want rather than on the things you do not want.

You direct your self away from negative thinking and worry and bad feelings that are the things that attract bad things into your experience.

You direct yourself to change how you feel rather than being the effect of everyone else's bad feelings.



There is no need to change the world around to suit yourself. Influence is a mutual agreement if you like to influence people, but Control and manipulation is against other people's wills.

Everything you could possibly want is already here. If it is not here you need only to visualize it and it will eventually manifest in this reality and be drawn to you naturally. The universe is friendly. It eagerly awaits for you to tell it what you want by your visualizations and vibrations.

There is no need to use energy to compel the universe to give you want you want. You need only ask and act in a certain way and it will be given to you.




I don't care what anyone wants to call it. But when you use your will to direct yourself and your thoughts, feelings and attitudes, then you will gain self mastery you will not need to force your will upon others.

I'm not saying that I have gained self mastery, far from it.

I am working on that every day. I need all the will power I can muster up to just keep myself in line. So I don't waste my energy or will on trying to control or manipulate others.

I see people involved in witchcraft doing that all too often.

I don't "misunderstand" witchcraft. It is simply people practicing the law of attraction in their unique and special ritualistic ways.

I also am not saying that all people who practice witchcraft use it to control other things and people. (But too many of them do.)

People who use any kind of mental control on others, are wasting their energy.

But you keep trying to compete with the law of attraction as if it is in competition with your specific form of using the technique. You keep trying to argue with me about it as if one thing is right and one thing is wrong. Why do you do that? Why is that so important to you?

Bored?

I addressed your Medieval Christianity question, but you persist to entertain false impressions about me for your own amusement.

So I can see the conversation has come to its expected conclusion.

Got it.

Just making sure I understand as completely as possible where you're coming from.

And just so you know as well where I'm coming from (whether you want to or not! )

It is my belief that we actually do continuously "create" our entire reality in every instant and almost all of that creation is done automatically and subconsciously - similar to how walking is done unconsiously and automatically.

You've just accepted that idea of witchcraft. That's all.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who abuse witchcraft.

That doesn't suprise me in the least.

All I can say is that if you believe that the main thrust of witchcraft has to do with the wicked manipulation of other people then no wonder you have such a bad attitude against it.

However, at the same time if you are trying to claim that the law of attraction doesn't influence the world around you I think that would be a farce as well.

Just like you claim, "I did not project my will on a specific black cat. I knew there was already a black cat in the making that would come willingly into my experience if I allowed it in and I invited it into my experience. I did not go out searching for a specific black cat. "

That's the way that witchcraft is supposed to work.

You don't go out trying to put a spell on a particular black cat to corece it into bending to your will.

You simply cast a spell out into the unvierse to bring to you a black cat, and the cat shows up.

You did precisely what witchcraft is all about. That's exactly what it's about.

You didn't coerce a cat to come to you against its wishes, and neither do witches.

Sure, there are those who probably abuse witchcraft. Just like their are probably those to try to abuse the Law of Attraction as well.

You've just been given a wrong impression about witchcraft by selfish people who try to abuse it for whatever reason.

That's all.

And now you're pushing that onto all witches?

That's not the witchcraft I'm studying.

There is nothing anywhere in any of Penczak's books that even remotely suggests using witchcraft in influence anyone outside of yourself in anyway way, good or bad.

There are places where he does suggests sending out good vibrations and energies to people and places that you may want to bless, however, even in those cases he suggests asking the Gods if this is alright to do before proceeding.

And never anywhere does he suggest to ever do anything that would in any way harm another (that would include coercing them to do something outside their will).

That is so not what witchcraft is about.

You just have a very negative view of witchcraft because you've met some loosers who call themselves witches.

I'm not trying to compete with you.

I didn't realize that you viewed this as a marketing.

Carry on.

Owl step aside.

You are not competing with me. You are pitting your new hobby of witchcraft against the law of attraction as if they are in competition with each other.

Is that what you think?

Got it. I agree with this.